Reversal Processing Pan F Plus in the Adox Scala Reversal Kit

ChrisGalway · Feb 24, 2022

Can anyone give me a guide to the processing times/temperature for Pan F Plus film, reversal processed in the Adox Scala Reversal kit? I'm tempted just to try the times/temperature for Adox 50 Reversal film as a start, but if someone has better advice I would be grateful for it. I've got the exposed Pan F ready (with exposures at ISOs of 50, 25 and 12 in the test strip) and I have the Adox kit ... just waiting for advice! Thanks in advance.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 24, 2022

Have you checked with @ADOX Fotoimpex if they have any recommendations based on their own experiments or feedback of their customers?

ChrisGalway · Feb 24, 2022

I've tried by email, and reminded them, but they are not responding. ( I don't use Twitter.). Thanks for the help though.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 24, 2022

I wish I could help you more but I have not reversed this particular film nor have I used the Scala kit though I've good experience in reversal processing of other films. I hope somebody like @Henning Serger who has worked extensively with Scala kit can help you reach your destination.

otto.f · Feb 25, 2022

Have you seen this on the adox.de site?

https://www.fotoimpex.de/shop/images/products/media/66896_5_PDF-Datasheet.pdf

ChrisGalway · Feb 25, 2022

Yes, that also comes with the kit. But there's not a word about processing other films. I use 120 film, and Adox do not make a dedicated reversal Scala film in 120 size, only 35mm. So I have no choice but to use another film. Their advertising for it at https://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-scala-reversal-kit/ says "  The kit can reverse ANY b&w film, but only films with a elevated silver content and a clear base will create truly beautiful slides." (Their capitalisation of ANY!). They make a suggestion for CMS 20 II film, but I cannot find this in stock in 120 size. ISO 20 is also a bit slow for me.

AgX · Feb 25, 2022

Both me and Raghu inquired on missing data at this data-sheet even in a thread started by an employee of Adox on this developer and did not get any reply.

ChrisGalway · Feb 25, 2022

Thanks for your help! I'm sure EVENTUALLY Adox/Fotoimpex will respond, they are just being very slow.

ChrisGalway · Feb 25, 2022

Folks, I finally got a reply from Adox. Their advice is:

"a 1st Development time of 10mins at 22deg is the starting point for commercial films, then follow the instructions for Scala 160 at 24deg".

In addition, he said:

"If you see any more metallic silver whilst doing the re exposure you have to Bleach again. "

I'll have a go with the Pan F this weekend and report back.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 25, 2022

ChrisGalway said:
I'll have a go with the Pan F this weekend and report back.

Fantastic! Have fun. Hope to see good results.

otto.f · Feb 25, 2022

Great news, success! ADOX is my new friend after Kodak left us

ChrisGalway · Feb 26, 2022

I reversal processed the test Pan F Plus 120 film in the Adox Scale Reversal Kit today, following the advice of someone at Adox who suggested I start with a first development time of 10 mins at 22C and then follow the Scala 160 film guidelines in the booklet https://www.fotoimpex.de/shop/images/products/media/66896_5_PDF-Datasheet.pdf . I am very pleased with results, but there are a couple of problems, of course!

The best results were with Pan F Plus rated at ISO 25 (not the usual ISO 50). I can live with that. (I will probably try FP4 Plus at some point when I need more speed.). The contrast was good, but could be higher. When I did the re-exposure, I noticed that there was still a residual silver image on the film (I used the recommended 6 minute bleach). Do you think I should give longer in the bleach bath?

But the really upsetting problem was that I damaged (like a tear) the emulsion on a couple of frames, presumably when I took it off the reel. The emulsion must have been VERY soft, I've never done this before in 62 years of processing film! Does anyone know how I might reduce this, apart of course from being very very careful in future?

Anyway, I'm pleased with this test. I have an Adox Scala 50 35mm film in a camera now (by the way, I'm taking stereo pairs, the 35mm is in an Iloca Rapid Stereo), but it will be a couple of weeks I suspect before it's finished and I process it. Then I'll also do another roll of 120 Pan F Plus, and keep my fingers crossed.

This is fun. Reversal processing (colour or B&W) is so satisfying; there's always a little tension taking the film off the spiral as the results are not always perfect!

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 26, 2022

If the bleach in Adox's kit is based on Potassium permanganate as believed by many, then it could be the potential cause of emulsion softening. You could ask @ADOX Fotoimpex advice on how to minimize the risk of damaging the film post bleaching, but in general, tight temperature control and non-aggressive agitation during and after the bleaching step help reduce the risk.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 26, 2022

Bleaching is to be done till completion. So you can always inspect the film in subdued light after bleaching for the recommended time and check if the negative silver image has been completely removed leaving behind a pale halide positive image.

ChrisGalway · Feb 26, 2022

I think it is potassium permanganate, it's that distinctive purple colour! In contract, the E6 bleach-fix is orange ... potassium dichromate? Anyway, I'll be more cautious next time.

ChrisGalway · Feb 26, 2022

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Bleaching is to be done till completion. So you can always inspect the film in subdued light after bleaching for the recommended time and check if the negative silver image has been completely removed leaving behind a pale halide positive image.

Thanks for this advice ... I'll do that next time. Presumably, that will have the effect of increasing the contrast (lightning the highlights).

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 26, 2022

ChrisGalway said:
I think it is potassium permanganate, it's that distinctive purple colour! In contract, the E6 bleach-fix is orange ... potassium dichromate? Anyway, I'll be more cautious next time.

I too had assumed it is permanganate but MSDS of the reversal kit doesn't mention permanganate. It was claimed by some users on Facebook that the bleach is probably not permanganate but some innovation done by Adox that makes it benign as far as MSDS is concerned. Only Adox can tell for sure.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 26, 2022

ChrisGalway said:
I've never done this before in 62 years of processing film!

That's a lot of years indeed! Good to have someone as experienced as you join this community. Here is on behalf of everyone a hearty welcome to Photrio.

KPA40 · Feb 26, 2022

Congratulations on your successful reversal development of the Pan F!
Yes, there is something fascinating about reversal processing film. I think it's only comparable to the moment when you separate the negative from the positive on the old Polaroid peel-apart film.
Out of curiosity I used the ADOX Scala reversal kit last year with some Scala 50/HR-50 and a Scala 160. While the Scala 50 gave fantastic results in this process I didn't like the Scala 160 in it at all, but the Scala 160 is history anyway.
I have never reversal processed the Pan F but I'm sure you'll be very happy with the stereo pairs of the Scala 50.
When I developed my first films with the Foma reversal kit about 12 years ago, I noticed very quickly how sensitive some films were to permanganate bleach. The gelatin then stood on the film carrier like floating jelly. To be on the safe side, I added about 10ml of Rollei RBM5 to the second developer (single Film, 250ml developer), a hardener based on glutaraldehyde. Maybe this could also help you to counteract this problem.

https://www.macodirect.de/en/chemis...s/4536/rollei-black-magic-hardener-250ml?c=31

Since I prepare my own chemistry, however, I only use potassium dichromate for the bleach bath, which hardens the gelatin somewhat instead of softening it further.

Olaf

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 26, 2022

Ron (PE) advised against using glutaraldehyde as a hardening agent:
"GA is pretty toxic and a lawsuit was taken out against EK due to its use." So please read about the toxicity of the chemical and assess the risks before you start using it.

AgX · Feb 26, 2022

But I do not see why a different hardening agent could not be used. Or a readymade concentrate off the shelves.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 27, 2022

One alternative to using a hardener is to do the second developing in a tanning developer like Pyrocat-HD. However, this results in warm toned positives.

KPA40 · Feb 27, 2022

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Ron (PE) advised against using glutaraldehyde as a hardening agent:
"GA is pretty toxic and a lawsuit was taken out against EK due to its use." So please read about the toxicity of the chemical and assess the risks before you start using it.

Yes, chemicals can be very dangerous if used improperly or carelessly, including glutaraldehyde or formaldehyde.
However, RBM5 is not pure glutaraldehyde or a strong solution of it. The safety data sheet lists three main ingredients: disodium disulphite 5-10%, glutaral 2-5% and acetic acid 0.5-2%.
Unfortunately, the shop doesn't list a direct link to the SDS, but I found it after some awkward searching on the parent company's site:

https://www.maco-photo.de/files/images/LP-GELADUR (GB).pdf

RBM5, RBM52, LP-Geladur, LPE520....all the same stuff.
Calbe Chemie seems to be the manufacturer.

I hope this helps everyone to decide whether they are confident enough to handle the stuff. All known safety measures for your own protection are of course obligatory.

Olaf

miaaglanz · Aug 28, 2024

I followed this forum in order to figure out my processing times for my PanF 50 film shot at ISO 25
All went well during the first stages of the process. I developed at 22C for 10 minutes and then followed the instructions for Scala 160 at 24dgs as dicussed above.
When I re-exposed the film it looked great, very yellow and clear, however I noticed the emulsion was beginning to flake on the sides. It did not go well from here. During the second development the emulsion began to flake off in large chunks, which I noticed when I rinsed and there were large pieces of emulsion when I dumped the water. I stopped rinsing and checked my negative strip. Half of it, the last 3 frames and first three frames had completely worn off, and were blank. The remaining negatives seemed to have great contrast, but the emulsion is barely holding on.

Could I have rinsed too much? Bleached too long (6 minutes)? Agitated too vigorously? Should I add a fixing agent?
I am thinking of trying again with another roll, this time bleaching for 5 minutes. I have also ordered Rollei RBMF Black Magic which I will add to the second developer. Could this help?

I shot the roll two months ago, so it already may be deteriorating?

Please help! I am new to this process.

DeletedAcct1 · Aug 29, 2024

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
I too had assumed it is permanganate but MSDS of the reversal kit doesn't mention permanganate. It was claimed by some users on Facebook that the bleach is probably not permanganate but some innovation done by Adox that makes it benign as far as MSDS is concerned. Only Adox can tell for sure.

It's permanganate, plus sulfuric acid, plus sodiul hexametaphosphate.
Nothing more, it's not rocket science...

Reversal Processing Pan F Plus in the Adox Scala Reversal Kit

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