Reversal Processing Ilford Pan F Plus

[jmoche]

After running across a set of black and white slides I made in the early 1970's, I thought I would see what sort of results I could get from a standard negative film stock. I used the procedure described by Ilford (https://www.ilfordphoto.com/reversal-processing/) using Pan F Plus. The only change I made to the procedure was using a substitute for the sulfuric acid. Instead of sulfuric acid, I used 55g of NaHSO4 (sodium bisulfate) dissolved in 1 liter of distilled water. Sodium bisulfate is easy to find as it is used as pH reducer for pools and spas. So instead of the Ilford formula for bleach, I used 4g potassium permangate dissolved in 1 liter of distilled water and 55 grams of sodium bisulfate dissolved in 1 liter of water. Just before the bleach step, you mix these together in a 1:1 ratio. The results I got were nothing less than exceptional. Really beautiful tones. On a whim, I tried the same process using some 4x5 Arista EDUJ 100. Horrible. No blacks. No whites. Lots of missing emulsion.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

After running across a set of black and white slides I made in the early 1970's, I thought I would see what sort of results I could get from a standard negative film stock. I used the procedure described by Ilford (https://www.ilfordphoto.com/reversal-processing/) using Pan F Plus. The only change I made to the procedure was using a substitute for the sulfuric acid. Instead of sulfuric acid, I used 55g of NaHSO4 (sodium bisulfate) dissolved in 1 liter of distilled water. Sodium bisulfate is easy to find as it is used as pH reducer for pools and spas. So instead of the Ilford formula for bleach, I used 4g potassium permangate dissolved in 1 liter of distilled water and 55 grams of sodium bisulfate dissolved in 1 liter of water. Just before the bleach step, you mix these together in a 1:1 ratio. The results I got were nothing less than exceptional. Really beautiful tones. On a whim, I tried the same process using some 4x5 Arista EDUJ 100. Horrible. No blacks. No whites. Lots of missing emulsion.

Arista EDU is made by Foma afaik. Maybe Fomapan 100.
In this instance youhave to halve your bleach concentration and use way less hypo in the first developer, say 0,3g in 300ml (change the hypo accordingly to your tank volume).
Go from there and see what you get...
Ivo could give you a more detailed and refined answer...

 

[jmoche]

Arista EDU is made by Foma afaik. Maybe Fomapan 100.
In this instance youhave to halve your bleach concentration and use way less hypo in the first developer, say 0,3g in 300ml (change the hypo accordingly to your tank volume).
Go from there and see what you get...
Ivo could give you a more detailed and refined answer...

Yes, it certainly seems like it's the bleach that is attacking the emulsion. I have a decent supply of the Arista 4x5 film and not many opportunities to shoot with the 4x5, so maybe I'll have another go at it. Who is Ivo?

 

[dokko]

@Ivo Stunga is a member here with a lot of hands on experience on reversal processing. he experimented a lot with different concentrations of the bleach and the silver solvent for different films.

A search for his comments should turn up a lot of useful informations for starting points for your process.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Yes, it certainly seems like it's the bleach that is attacking the emulsion. I have a decent supply of the Arista 4x5 film and not many opportunities to shoot with the 4x5, so maybe I'll have another go at it. Who is Ivo?

Actually it's the subbing layer that fails in a permanganic acid solution. The subbing layer is the "adhesive" layer between the base and the emulsion layer. Not that it makes any differences...

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Foma films are indeed very fragile, soft and sensitive to bleach - can easily be overdone with the same concentration and time combo that is OK for other films. This seems also to vary from batch to batch...
Considering that you use a different bleach composition, I can only suggest to experiment with reduced bleach times or concentrations to see what works for any given film.
After extensive experimentation I ended up using 1/3 dilute bleach (1 part A + 1 part B + 1 part water) for all my films, same bleach time, same constant agitation. That really turned the bleach issues into a very rare occurrence.
But one might run into underbleach, but that is easy to notice as a strange solarization-like effects or loss of detail in densest parts of image. Simply increase concentration or bleach time the next time around to fix that.

In my experience only Fomapan films are that sensitive to bleach and I'm reversing all films I can get my hands on just for my masochistic pleasure - inspired by TNP film comparisons and a little bit by Attic Darkroom shenanigans, both on YouTube.

Cut short strips, load in some cassettes and shoot some frames, then reverse and do re-exposure to light to see if you have something to go on. If not - any further stage won't produce an image and you can restart the test with another strip.
Or
Shoot a roll and then cut it into some short strips for reversal experiments, then test as above.

Note that some films don't need any hypo at all, but T-Grain films need a ton of it by comparison.

My usual approach is to start with plain PQ Universal and add some hypo only when the results are requiring it - aka images are dark and highlights aren't highlights.
With T films I usually start with about 3-4 grams of hypo per 500ml developer and go from there.
Many traditional films tend to like about 0.3g per 500ml PQ.

Keep temps stable throughout the reversal.

 

[jmoche]

Thank you, Ivo!

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Have fun and do report the results

 

[1957ExaktaVarexIIa]

But one might run into underbleach, but that is easy to notice as a strange solarization-like effects or loss of detail in densest parts of image. Simply increase concentration or bleach time the next time around to fix that.

I use to open the tank just after permaganate bleach bath and look at the film: If bleaching has worked, Fomapan R100 has a fair colour.

If bleaching has not worked there are dark brown zones on the film.
In such a case I use to continue bleaching for some minutes and check again.

If even this don't work I set up new bleach bath and bleach again for 3 minutes or so.
Only once - when I was pretty lazy - I just added about 10 ml of H2SO4 (15%) to my 200 ml bleach bath. And it worked .

I use to continue the process only if bleaching is actually finished.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

I use to continue the process only if bleaching is actually finished.

Yup

 

[ags2mikon]

Is there a reason why you didn't use the sulfuric acid?

 

[YoIaMoNwater]

Foma films are indeed very fragile, soft and sensitive to bleach - can easily be overdone with the same concentration and time combo that is OK for other films. This seems also to vary from batch to batch...
Considering that you use a different bleach composition, I can only suggest to experiment with reduced bleach times or concentrations to see what works for any given film.
After extensive experimentation I ended up using 1/3 dilute bleach (1 part A + 1 part B + 1 part water) for all my films, same bleach time, same constant agitation. That really turned the bleach issues into a very rare occurrence.
But one might run into underbleach, but that is easy to notice as a strange solarization-like effects or loss of detail in densest parts of image. Simply increase concentration or bleach time the next time around to fix that.

In my experience only Fomapan films are that sensitive to bleach and I'm reversing all films I can get my hands on just for my masochistic pleasure - inspired by TNP film comparisons and a little bit by Attic Darkroom shenanigans, both on YouTube.

Cut short strips, load in some cassettes and shoot some frames, then reverse and do re-exposure to light to see if you have something to go on. If not - any further stage won't produce an image and you can restart the test with another strip.
Or
Shoot a roll and then cut it into some short strips for reversal experiments, then test as above.

Note that some films don't need any hypo at all, but T-Grain films need a ton of it by comparison.

My usual approach is to start with plain PQ Universal and add some hypo only when the results are requiring it - aka images are dark and highlights aren't highlights.
With T films I usually start with about 3-4 grams of hypo per 500ml developer and go from there.
Many traditional films tend to like about 0.3g per 500ml PQ.

Keep temps stable throughout the reversal.

Have you tried reversing Washi F, which is X-ray film? I tried it years ago and the end result slide had very very low Dmax. I had a feeling the film was very sensitive to bleach but didn't have time and resources to test it by reducing the bleaching time. Curious if anyone else had tried it as it also comes in a clear base.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

I haven't, no - maybe someday. These "exotic"-sounding films tend to cost stupid money around here, so I avoid that bubble like a plague.

I have still to try some locally available/new/more reputable films and my new Vinyl records passion takes the front seat now

Having moved to different place and life happening the way it happens - isn't helping with my film project - haven't reversed/projected a film for half a year it seems.