Reversal problems

I have jumped into the waters and have gotten stuck here....

I picked up up the Foma R100 kit with 8 rolls of R100 film and all went ok. I got the bug and am now going down the homebrew road. Here is where I got stuck.

1st developer: D-19 with hypo added (as needed, pre made in stock solution (8g with 500ml water) at development time.

bleach Potassium dichromate 5,0 g per 1l / Sulfuric acid (2% / vol) combined at dev time.

clearing 30 grams of sodium metabisulfite with 1 liter of water

The film I have been playing with is HP5, Foma 100 and Neopan 400. This is mostly due to the abundance in my freezer.

Development wise, the films have been coming out close to what I expect but there is one problem that I can't clear up....



I use the same water that I used with the Foma kit. The film develops normally and as expected as negitives. This is not dust.

What part of the process is going astray?

Mmm .. this is different to my problem ..
I am still a noonie when it comes to reversal processing but I noticed your bleach and clearing bath are different to what others call 'normal'.
Everyone uses 9.5g/L of potassium dichromate and 50g/l of S sulfite for clearing bath. S metabisulfate clearing bath is for permanganate bleach - I mixed up this too.
I don't know if thse caused the dots though .. let the experts talk ...

You can use Sodium Metabisulphite as the clearing bath for Dichromate & Permganate bleaches, but Sulphite is not strong enough with permanganate.

Looks like a bleaching/clearing issue.

Ian

Let all chemicals dissolve better. Agitate more in bleach and clearing bath. Do not use hypo in the developer

you really don't need to use hypo with R100 and HP5 (although a bit of halide solvent may be good for R100)... but that did not cause your problem

none of the clearing bath from Foma kit lefts? When I was doing the same (moving from Foma kit to my own) I replaced only one bath at a trial... first the bleach, when it was ok I replaced the developer etc... so i could debug the process and knew what exactly went wrong

vencahaus said:

you really don't need to use hypo with R100 and HP5 (although a bit of halide solvent may be good for R100)... but that did not cause your problem

none of the clearing bath from Foma kit lefts? When I was doing the same (moving from Foma kit to my own) I replaced only one bath at a trial... first the bleach, when it was ok I replaced the developer etc... so i could debug the process and knew what exactly went wrong

Click to expand...

I used up all the Foma R100 with the kit. It is regular Foma 100 I have been using. It was the best out-of-the-box.

I still have a little of the foma kit left, but have not considered using it. I tried a roll of Neopan400 through it and most of the emulsion floated out with the rinse. At that point I asumed their process was too tightly talored to their film.

The chemicals I have been using is largely based on what I can actually get (Canada). I find it funny that it is easy to obtain dichromate which has health risks and the permganate I have to sign my life away and swear three times........ The hardest was getting the acid, and oddly they actually shipped it, as I was willing / expecting to have to pick that one up. Love the red tape.

I did try Jens Osbahr's PDF and just assumed it was because I was using Rodinal. That brought me to Xtol and finally to D-19.

I guess I will just run a film through without the clearing agent. If I get no spots, I will know what step it was.

look at dr5 chrome web site, they have a nice review of films that are suitable... HP5 is a very good start
I don't think foma 100 is usable for this as well as Neopan, but I've never tried them

films I tried, that don't need hypo in 1st dev: Foma R100, HP5, Rollei 80s, 400s and also Superpan 200 i think (which is almost the same film as Scala)
i'd guess that also Tri-X and maybe some other 400ISO films

i don't think the cause was hypo... it just make it easier for you to work with films that are well tested

well some films just don't stand so much of baths and aggressive chemistry...

I use a potassium permanganate/sodium bisulfate bleach followed by a sodium metabifulfite clearing bath. When I first started reversal processing, I took the film out of my plastic reels, exposed it to light, then reloaded it in to plastic reels prior to second development (I reloaded the film submerged in water, which helped it load without sticking to the rell or to itself). Every time I did that, I noticed that the emulsion around the sprockets had peeled off. It was just around the sprockets, so the emulsion was pulled off by rubbing against the plastic reels while I was wratcheting it back in the reel. I never had any problems with the pulled-off emulsion sticking to the rest of the film that I can remember. PErhaps somewhere in your process the emulsion is coming off from somewhere on the film and sticking itself in to your images. I've never had that happen to me, that I can remember, but i've read it's possible

Just a thought. I might be wrong (actually, that's quite possible )

Existing Light said:

I noticed that the emulsion around the sprockets had peeled off.

Click to expand...

Well, I just tried a roll without the clearing and I get the same spots. It looks like my bleach is too strong. I may half it and adjust the time.

I know Foma 100 and Neopan400 emulsions are pretty soft. I know tmax has a hardier emulsion so I may spin that trough my current chemistry to see how that fairs.

Europan said:

Let all chemicals dissolve better. Agitate more in bleach and clearing bath. Do not use hypo in the developer

Click to expand...

I use a motor base.

mrred said:

Well, I just tried a roll without the clearing and I get the same spots. It looks like my bleach is too strong. I may half it and adjust the time.

I know Foma 100 and Neopan400 emulsions are pretty soft. I know tmax has a hardier emulsion so I may spin that trough my current chemistry to see how that fairs.

Click to expand...

You skipped the clearing bath and everything is the same? Then there is definitely a problem with your clearing bath

if it's the black spots you're talking about.....

I had the same thing with ILFORD films---you need to pre-soak first--the dichromate bleach reacts with the dyes and produces black spots---soak....5' dump out the purple...soak 30s dump...4-5x till the purple's gone...THEN develop

Now that make a lot of sense. I got rid of most of it, but I am using near 1 gal of dist water for all the washes. It's still there. It's a good suggestion and I will try.

OH---don't re-use any old chemicals that were used with something that turned spotted..ALSO!!!!! check that you don't have anything else that is reacting with the bleach too----it's a strong oxidizer--if you have some kind of metal making contact with the bleach--that will do the same thing---produce tiny black lampblack type splotchs that stick to the film---so check your equipment and the bottles you have the bleach in...if there's a metal cap ro something like that--there's a cupprit there too...

John, would my steel reels and aluminum development container count? I do clean them with diluted ammonia now and then.

The bottles are completely plastic cleaned with diluted ammonia prior to use.

I don't completely trust my source of distilled water so I have just ordered a distiller off that auction site. Something to enable my control-freakyness....lol

Also at the rate of my testing, I have gone through two batches of bleach / clearing. I have not had a chance to test the pre-soak theory because I took a night off. If it still persists, I'm guessing the local drug store is not as distilled as I would like it to be.

Some time ago I discovered B&W slides for myself, too. Just like you, I started off with Foma's reversal kit. However, I couldn't use the Foma R 100 film, because it is only available in 135. I, however, only shoot 120 and 4x5. So I had to look for a replacement. I ended up using Rollei's IR400, 80S and Superpan 200, but also tried other films like T-Max 400, Acros, R3, etc.

The spots on your film I'd get when the KMnO4 didn't dissolve properly. I'd need to shake, stir it for quite some time, even after the visible crystals were gone to make sure all of it dissolved. Then, the clearing bath was very important to removing minor spots.

Just like, I moved away from using the Foma reversal kit for several reasons. One being that the results were not consistent. I had massive trouble using the kit with the films I use. I hear with Fome R100 it's a great combination and works wonders. Me, not being able to use R100, I had to look for an alternative. With the films I use the film emulsion would come off frequently, resulting in a clear film - and lost photos. This would happen about 9 out of 10 times. Way too often for my taste. In addition to that, I find the Foma Kit overpriced, being about EUR 30 here in Germany for just 8 rolls of film!

After some research I discovered that using K2Cr2O7 (potassium dichromate) instead of KMnO4 (potassium permanganate) solved the problems I had before.
Ever since I started using potassium dichromate I never had any problem with processing any b&w film as a slide. Never observed any spots, whatsoever.

I think that the spots on your film can result for various reasons:
- Bleach bath was made with tap water (not distilled water). It caused me some trouble here, because we have hard water where I live.
- Clearing bath was not good enough (e.g. not concentrated enough, not applied long enough, or used too often and exhausted)
- Metal reels instead of plastic reels. I have never used metal reels, but I imagine that it would react with the K2Cr2O7.

After bleaching I rinse the film thoroughly. I pour in fresh (tap) water and shake about 5 or more times, until the water stays almost clear.

Good luck with the further testing.

If you're interested, I created a group for b&w reversal processing ethusiast like us on flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/b-w-reversal-process/

Thanks hirokun for some much needed insight.

I mixed my soups with distilled water from my local drug store. But I am suspect of the quality and am awaiting my own distiller.

I have found a presoak to be effective in reducing more of my "spots", but an unacceptable amount remains. I will try passing the bleach through a paper coffee filter the next time I process. That should catch undissolved chemicals.

I have read that the clearing agent was just to remove the discolour. Perhaps I am not using enough.

Except for the fix, all mine are used as one shot. I don't think exhaustion is in effect.

To discount any film issues, I have plundered my PlusX supply. You can't get any more reversal standard than that. Thanks to bulk rolling, I can do 6 shot tests.

I have joined you group on Flickr. The one I was a member of seems to be inactive at best. I noticed some differences in your formulas, and I will adjust.

More testing......

I used metal reels with potassium dichromate and had no problems

also I used Kodak's "system Cleaner" which was really just a bleach used to clean equipment ( checked the MSDS )...but unfortunately you can't get it anymore AFAIK

btw the first time I did a reversal it was late at night and I realized I had potassium dichromate from a Gum Bichromate kit i had....but I needed 12ml of sulfuric acid...too late to go to a store searching for acid...so I got an eyedropper and took a tenny bit out of each of the cells of my car battery...worked great

DarkroomExperimente said:

.so I got an eyedropper and took a tenny bit out of each of the cells of my car battery...worked great

Click to expand...

And did the car start next morning????

Steve

yup....car was fine since I only took a TINY bit ( what's a "tenny" anyway?) from each cell

I also tried a new safer system cleaner that doesn't use dichromate just in case it worked as a bleach...but Nooooo it didn't work

this problem could be caused by a few things.
it is not caused by using SS-reels.
you also should not pre-wash film for reversal processing.

if the film you are using is old, it could be causing this problem, especially if it has been in and out of the freeze. ILFORD films are terrible for this issue.

if the wash is too short after the 1st developer, it could cause this problem. DO NOT use a stop-bath after the 1st developer.

if your bleach is the wrong mix or the ACID is of poor quality, it could cause this. likely the water from the drugstore is fine. likely the dichromate is fine.

add meta-bisulfite to your clear bath

regards.

PRE SOAK is certainly needed---EXPERIMENT---get a sheet of film---unexposed---cut it in half---soak one for a long time ....till all dye is out...purple ilford /blue kodak....multipe rinses.....dry it....theother half leave dry---

dry the soaked one---NOW...take your bleach ad write a "B" with a q-tip dipped in the bleach on the back of both....wait a while...now wash the hell out of both--the one that wasn't pre-soaked will have a PERMANENT stained B on it----done it--my conclusion after bein mystifed by the random stains I was getting with tube processing is that pre soak is ABSOLUTELY necessary to prevent this stain

SECOND---STAINLESS is ok---it's other metals---aluminum screws or whatever eSPECIALLY....reacts with the bleach and makes black/lampblack blobs....try it with bleach and a paperclip bit of aluminum foil...it'll make black crap that coats the metal--this is fine and comes off in stick blobs...try this first with your equpment to see what is getting a black coating...could be somethig inside that you cant see....try it and you shall see.