reusing water

Donald Qualls · Aug 4, 2021

Concerns about the potability of water are legitimate -- but as noted, water is local, as well. If you're in a shortage area, get your water from a limited flow well, or (heaven forbid) have to use untreated surface water for your processing, conserving water means a lot more to you locally than it does if you're on a municipal water supply that draws from a river, treats the water, then treats the sewage and sends it back to the same river.

For myself, I'm on a deep well with water that's clean enough my partner used to use it straight from the tap for a reef aquarium (started filtering a couple years ago due to concerns about iron content). My septic system doesn't replenish the aquifer that supplies my water; that water is decades or centuries old, originally rain water from a considerable distance away, now filtered through limestone for many miles. As long as the electricity stays on and the neighbors don't start pumping waste down their own wells, my water will be fine -- which, sadly, says nothing about the global shortage of potable water, because there's no practical way to make a small percentage of my water available for an African village that otherwise must drink (untreated) water carried from a river.

Charles O'Connor · Jul 28, 2022

The correct filter media is Amberlite Resin. Its cheap and easy to find. A bit of bromine needs to be added into the mix as well. There are mixes of high/low base Amberlite For the column. I just use the low base in a bucket with a bromine tablet in a hot tub dispenser. I use pool strips to watch the bromine as that will damage prints. It runs 40 liters through a 16x20 print washer. Full water change every three months. 110.00 to set up.

its based on patent request from Kodak 30 years ago. Easily found on Google With brand names and part numbers for Amberlite.

pentaxuser · Jul 28, 2022

Charles O'Connor said:
The correct filter media is Amberlite Resin. Its cheap and easy to find. A bit of bromine needs to be added into the mix as well. There are mixes of high/low base Amberlite For the column. I just use the low base in a bucket with a bromine tablet in a hot tub dispenser. I use pool strips to watch the bromine as that will damage prints. It runs 40 liters through a 16x20 print washer. Full water change every three months. 110.00 to set up.

its based on patent request from Kodak 30 years ago. Easily found on Google With brand names and part numbers for Amberlite.

Sounds like the kind of info needed by the OP so it's a pity he hasn't been visited since Oct last year. Maybe he felt that the only way to save more water was to give up film processing and printing

We may never know

pentaxuser

gone · Jul 28, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Maybe he felt that the only way to save more water was to give up film processing and printing

Sounds foolproof to me. At roughly 8 lbs a gallon, water is heavy, bulky, and not easy to ship. It's surely easier to ship one's self to where the water is. This is always a local issue though, not national or global.

When you look at the water that's required for mining, cattle raising, automotive production, ship building, electronic devices, roads, concrete, etc, you see the problem. Half a million gallons of water is required to make 1 ton of lithium. The problem is never going to be a few people doing analog photography.

Just look at the electric car industry, lithium battery industry, and electronic device making industries. That's all going to kill us just as surely as the fossil fuels, and way before the water runs out.

There's far too many people on the earth, that's the 500 lb gorilla in the room.

Charles O'Connor · Jul 28, 2022

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0685763B1

Attached is a link if anyone wants to build one and conserve lots of water. Builder tip you want the column to fill from the bottom so the crystals don’t compact. For me its a workaround to not having a sink. Prints, negatives, all wash in this thing and saves thousands of liters of water over 3 months. The washer flow rate is 60 gallons per hour for fiber at this 16 x 20 size. It can go to six months if I push it. Bromine keeps the Amberlite functioning and eliminates the biologics so it does not become an aquarium. Setup pays for itself in less than a year and can really help workflow if you don’t have a sink. Trays I hose off outside. Note: Amberlite is supposed to pull the toxic parts of developer out of solution as well but I have never tested it, I just pour HC110 out in the yard to keep it out of the ocean.

Water dispenser hot/cold and simple mixing equation for chemical mixing.

Sure fresh water is undervalued now, but here in L.A. I don’t think it will be much longer. There really is no justification to grow walnuts in CA or agricultural projects in AZ, except greed and stupidity, but thats for another forum. My personal goal is to reduce my footprint and still make silver prints.

mshchem · Jul 29, 2022

Charles O'Connor said:
https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0685763B1

Attached is a link if anyone wants to build one and conserve lots of water. Builder tip you want the column to fill from the bottom so the crystals don’t compact. For me its a workaround to not having a sink. Prints, negatives, all wash in this thing and saves thousands of liters of water over 3 months. The washer flow rate is 60 gallons per hour for fiber at this 16 x 20 size. It can go to six months if I push it. Bromine keeps the Amberlite functioning and eliminates the biologics so it does not become an aquarium. Setup pays for itself in less than a year and can really help workflow if you don’t have a sink. Trays I hose off outside. Note: Amberlite is supposed to pull the toxic parts of developer out of solution as well but I have never tested it, I just pour HC110 out in the yard to keep it out of the ocean.

Water dispenser hot/cold and simple mixing equation for chemical mixing.

Sure fresh water is undervalued now, but here in L.A. I don’t think it will be much longer. There really is no justification to grow walnuts in CA or agricultural projects in AZ, except greed and stupidity, but thats for another forum. My personal goal is to reduce my footprint and still make silver prints.

I saved the patent information as a PDF, makes sense. I use a recirculation pump on my slot print washer, usually dump and refill a couple times when washing FB prints. Archival print washers that require a constant flow of fresh water are really a water hog.

I can't justify something like this but I'm sure it could work. If the resin is kept in good condition the water would be quite pure, except for the bromine.

AgX · Jul 29, 2022

That Bromine-Chlorine compound is bad stuff as such, but of course the problem of recirculating washing water becoming a feed for mircorganisms is valid.

Charles O'Connor · Jul 29, 2022

AgX said:
That Bromine-Chlorine compound is bad stuff as such, but of course the problem of recirculating washing water becoming a feed for mircorganisms is valid.

Agreed nasty stuff. Very low level in this application nothing near what would be in pool water. Not exactly same as hot tub tablets, but similar. It is in the mix to keep the sulfur compounds from forming and clogging the beads. The control of organics is added bonus. I have splashed the water in my eye at end of wash by mistake without ill effects.

Charles O'Connor · Jul 29, 2022

mshchem said:
I saved the patent information as a PDF, makes sense. I use a recirculation pump on my slot print washer, usually dump and refill a couple times when washing FB prints. Archival print washers that require a constant flow of fresh water are really a water hog.

I can't justify something like this but I'm sure it could work. If the resin is kept in good condition the water would be quite pure, except for the bromine.

If you have a pump you are already 90% there. Just get a filter and go. A fuel filter in line would do it. As I said it comes down to workflow. No running water or drain in garage.

mshchem · Jul 29, 2022

Charles O'Connor said:
If you have a pump you are already 90% there. Just get a filter and go. A fuel filter in line would do it. As I said it comes down to workflow. No running water or drain in garage.

It's the ion exchange resin that's doing the work. Fuel filter doesn't help remove thiosulfate.

If someone is setting up one of these systems might be a good idea to start by filling the print washer with distilled or demineralized water. The tap water where I live, Iowa, is quite hard, the resin will be, at least, partially exhausted demineralizing, calcium and to a lesser extent magnesium carbonates, present in the tap water.

This is a good idea where access to water or plumbing is limited.

Keep updating, do you have a conductivity sensor installed?

Best Mike

Charles O'Connor · Jul 29, 2022

mshchem said:
It's the ion exchange resin that's doing the work. Fuel filter doesn't help remove thiosulfate.

If someone is setting up one of these systems might be a good idea to start by filling the print washer with distilled or demineralized water. The tap water where I live, Iowa, is quite hard, the resin will be, at least, partially exhausted demineralizing, calcium and to a lesser extent magnesium carbonates, present in the tap water.

This is a good idea where access to water or plumbing is limited.

Keep updating, do you have a conductivity sensor installed?

Best Mike

https://scholarworks.rit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=7552&context=theses

You misunderstood Or I was not clear. The fuel filter container is used to hild the Amberlite. You just need some filter material to catch debris and keep the beads in place. Amberlite has a lot of capacity, distilled wont hurt But might slow it down a bit.

No i did not go with solenoids to manage flows or conductivity testing. I have been doing this going on 10 years with just bromine water strips kept at 1. if it goes lower there are yellow bits that form SLOWLY and water will cloud. I test a print for thiosufate every now and then to be sure they clear. I also load up the Amberlite since its cheap. The above link can be used to do the maths and get it all exact to match throughput but I did not bother. It keeps the fixer out for at least 3-5 months so its dialed in for me.

zone6 washer 16x20
marineland canister filter restricted to 1-2 gallons per min so it wont overflow the washer with in line valves.
in line brominator and tablet on tiny opening Version has a bypass as well.
Amberlite ira 68 from Fischer Sci. 40.00 US

xray supply shops carry this stuff if you do not want DIY. Also there are other papers with the organic chem description of whats happening.

mshchem · Jul 30, 2022

If you look at the manuals for Dowex resins, not sure if Dow has any involvement at this stage. Where I worked 30 years back there were paint pre-treat lines that used Dowex 50 lb bags, on big pallets. You can do amazing things with the right resins in column or a canister like you have.

I have sinks and water so I'm set. Sounds like you have a good setup.

mshchem · Jul 30, 2022

Charles O'Connor said:
https://scholarworks.rit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=7552&context=theses

You misunderstood Or I was not clear. The fuel filter container is used to hild the Amberlite. You just need some filter material to catch debris and keep the beads in place. Amberlite has a lot of capacity, distilled wont hurt But might slow it down a bit.

No i did not go with solenoids to manage flows or conductivity testing. I have been doing this going on 10 years with just bromine water strips kept at 1. if it goes lower there are yellow bits that form SLOWLY and water will cloud. I test a print for thiosufate every now and then to be sure they clear. I also load up the Amberlite since its cheap. The above link can be used to do the maths and get it all exact to match throughput but I did not bother. It keeps the fixer out for at least 3-5 months so its dialed in for me.

zone6 washer 16x20
marineland canister filter restricted to 1-2 gallons per min so it wont overflow the washer with in line valves.
in line brominator and tablet on tiny opening Version has a bypass as well.
Amberlite ira 68 from Fischer Sci. 40.00 US

xray supply shops carry this stuff if you do not want DIY. Also there are other papers with the organic chem description of whats happening.

That's a great paper. Thanks for the link. I did some undergraduate research for a professor who was involved in developing HPLC (liquid chromatography) similar techniques on a much smaller scale. I have a vague memory of running anion separations. Columns were 8mm x 300mm IIRC.

reusing water

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