Reusing one shot developer and other bad practices.

Cholentpot · Sep 6, 2023

I've been reusing my officially one shot developers for quite some time now. I have loads of old or suspect film and about a year ago I figured why waste unused developer on suspect film? So I started saving up my oddball rolls and after developing a few rolls of good film I'd save the developer and use on the suspect rolls. I've never had an issue, the used D76, Hc110 performed perfectly fine. I always add about a minute or so for every additional use. Question is, how far can I take this?

I'm going to test this out today, first I'm going to develop two rolls of Tmax 100 in D-76 1:1 for 9.5 min. Next I'm going to save the developer and use on some Plus-X 2402 in 120 for 9-10 min and then use again for a roll of Orwo Un-54 and some 16mm Tri-x around 9min.

No clue what'll be but I'm very interested to see how far I can take it with used D-76.

Kino · Sep 6, 2023

Quick, someone stop this madman!

FriedLouisStudio · Sep 6, 2023

We sometimes reused D-76 1:1 the same day if we had a whole bunch of 35mm/120 rolls to develop at once. But we never bottled used film developer and stored it for use a day or two later. (Lightly used print developer and litho developer, yes.)

We had a separate film darkroom just for sheet film loading/unloading and film processing. In the dark, we'd pull the just-developed reels out of the tanks and leave the tanks standing full, and submerge the reels in the water, then fixer, deep tanks we used for sheet film. We had enough reels then to have dry ones on hand for the next rolls, which we'd give a minute or two longer in the weakened developer.

So no, this isn't exactly a "best practice". But it fits right in with my dad's motto: An amateur knows how to follow the rules, a professional knows how to break them.

Sirius Glass · Sep 6, 2023

One shot development should not be reused.

Daniela · Sep 6, 2023

Good luck, OP! I'll be interested in seeing the results!

faberryman · Sep 6, 2023

Cholentpot said:
I've been reusing my officially one shot developers for quite some time now. I have loads of old or suspect film and about a year ago I figured why waste unused developer on suspect film? So I started saving up my oddball rolls and after developing a few rolls of good film I'd save the developer and use on the suspect rolls. I've never had an issue, the used D76, Hc110 performed perfectly fine. I always add about a minute or so for every additional use. Question is, how far can I take this?

I'm going to test this out today, first I'm going to develop two rolls of Tmax 100 in D-76 1:1 for 9.5 min. Next I'm going to save the developer and use on some Plus-X 2402 in 120 for 9-10 min and then use again for a roll of Orwo Un-54 and some 16mm Tri-x around 9min.

No clue what'll be but I'm very interested to see how far I can take it with used D-76.

I thought one shot developers were one shot because after one use they did not have sufficient developer remaining to develop a second roll. Not necessarily that you wouldn't get something on the second roll, but that it would not be fully developed as was the first roll. So the question is, how will you determine if the first and second rolls are developed equally? Why would a manufacturer tell you it was one shot if it were two shot? Sell more developer?

Vaughn · Sep 6, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
One shot development should not be reused.

Agreed, but I think the definition of "one-shot" needs to be clarified. D-76 is not a 'one-shot developer'. But one can use D-76 in a one-shot developing process, and it is often used that way.

The capacity (amt of developer per square inch of film needed for proper development) for D-76 is roughly 4 rolls per liter at full strength, or 2 rolls used at a 1:1 dilution. This is probably a conservative figure, but there are other variables such as the amount of silver to be developed (night images, for example).

Using racks and small tanks for 4x5 film, it is common to reuse the developer until the capacity is reached, and Kodak provides the percentage to increase development time. Doing 4 sheets of 4x5 at a time in a one quart tank, 10% was added to the development time for the next 4 sheets of 4x5, and so on. In theory, the quart of full-strength D-76 should do 16 sheets of 4x5.

To get the max out of a developer, I think it would be better to save the film up until one can use the developer to its capacity in one day's development session, rather than save used, but still not used to capacity, developer for later use. But for 'odd-ball' rolls of film -- why not, what the heck!

Cholentpot · Sep 6, 2023

Kino said:
Quick, someone stop this madman!

Ruffle some feathers more like it. You'll never stop me!

FriedLouisStudio said:
We sometimes reused D-76 1:1 the same day if we had a whole bunch of 35mm/120 rolls to develop at once. But we never bottled used film developer and stored it for use a day or two later. (Lightly used print developer and litho developer, yes.)

We had a separate film darkroom just for sheet film loading/unloading and film processing. In the dark, we'd pull the just-developed reels out of the tanks and leave the tanks standing full, and submerge the reels in the water, then fixer, deep tanks we used for sheet film. We had enough reels then to have dry ones on hand for the next rolls, which we'd give a minute or two longer in the weakened developer.

So no, this isn't exactly a "best practice". But it fits right in with my dad's motto: An amateur knows how to follow the rules, a professional knows how to break them.

Yes, I never rebottle. I don't think it would last, but it does look very much like it works for me if used immediately. I guess after hand processing over 1,000 rolls of all kinds I can start playing around a bit.

Sirius Glass said:
One shot development should not be reused.

Should and can't are not the same. Would I recommend this? No, but I don't recommend Monobaths either, or caffeineol but I'll use 'em if I have 'em.

Daniela said:
Good luck, OP! I'll be interested in seeing the results!

Got the last rolls washing now. I don't know when I'll scan but I'll report the visual inspection.

faberryman said:
I thought one shot developers were one shot because after one use they did not have sufficient developer remaining to develop a second roll. Not necessarily that you wouldn't get something on the second roll, but that it would not be fully developed as was the first roll. So the question is, how will you determine if the first and second rolls are developed equally? Why would a manufacturer tell you it was one shot if it were two shot? Sell more developer?

So the second set of rolls are generally not the best quality film to begin with. No, I can't tell if it's fully developed but if the scans or prints or negatives look nice to my eye that's good enough for me. I'm not looking for technically perfect obviously. I didn't even use a thermometer when diluting the stock. This isn't rocket surgery. Once I figured out the basics and I don't have 'Why did this go wrong?' questions anymore I figured I can branch out and mess around a bit.

Vaughn said:
Agreed, but I think the definition of "one-shot" needs to be clarified. D-76 is not a 'one-shot developer'. But one can use D-76 in a one-shot developing process, and it is often used that way.

The capacity (amt of developer per square inch of film needed for proper development) for D-76 is roughly 4 rolls per liter at full strength, or 2 rolls used at a 1:1 dilution. This is probably a conservative figure, but there are other variables such as the amount of silver to be developed (night images, for example).

Using racks and small tanks for 4x5 film, it is common to reuse the developer until the capacity is reached, and Kodak provides the percentage to increase development time. Doing 4 sheets of 4x5 at a time in a one quart tank, 10% was added to the development time for the next 4 sheets of 4x5, and so on. In theory, the quart of full-strength D-76 should do 16 sheets of 4x5.

To get the max out of a developer, I think it would be better to save the film up until one can use the developer to its capacity in one day's development session, rather than save used, but still not used to capacity, developer for later use. But for 'odd-ball' rolls of film -- why not, what the heck!

Right on.

So for my test I did use Tmax as the initial film. I've found Tmax to be pretty tough on developers. It tends to wring them out, same for the fix. Also, notice how I don't do this with fix. Fix dies and it's dead, there's no messing about with it. Also, I'm not saving the developer. I have a collection of tanks and reels, I just load up 2-3 tanks and keep going. I toss the developer after the last roll.

Sirius Glass · Sep 6, 2023

Vaughn said:
Agreed, but I think the definition of "one-shot" needs to be clarified. D-76 is not a 'one-shot developer'. But one can use D-76 in a one-shot developing process, and it is often used that way.

The capacity (amt of developer per square inch of film needed for proper development) for D-76 is roughly 4 rolls per liter at full strength, or 2 rolls used at a 1:1 dilution. This is probably a conservative figure, but there are other variables such as the amount of silver to be developed (night images, for example).

Using racks and small tanks for 4x5 film, it is common to reuse the developer until the capacity is reached, and Kodak provides the percentage to increase development time. Doing 4 sheets of 4x5 at a time in a one quart tank, 10% was added to the development time for the next 4 sheets of 4x5, and so on. In theory, the quart of full-strength D-76 should do 16 sheets of 4x5.

To get the max out of a developer, I think it would be better to save the film up until one can use the developer to its capacity in one day's development session, rather than save used, but still not used to capacity, developer for later use. But for 'odd-ball' rolls of film -- why not, what the heck!

A number of developers can be used as one shot developers. Doing so means that the developer used is discarded after it is used. PERIOD.

Vaughn · Sep 6, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
A number of developers can be used as one shot developers. Doing so means that the developer used is discarded after it is used. PERIOD.

Totally agree -- only I believe the OP was not technically using D-76 in a one shot developing process (defined as: small volume of developer used to capacity in one go) and thought it would be helpful to clarify that in our discussion.

Cholentpot · Sep 6, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
A number of developers can be used as one shot developers. Doing so means that the developer used is discarded after it is used. PERIOD.

Of course Sensi.

Anyhow here's an update.

The Tmax obviously looks great. The next roll which turned out to be Agfa Aviphot, I mislabeled the roll and didn't feel the perfs in the changing bag. I snipped off an edge and looked at it and realized it was Aviphot, it looks great although the camera is toast. It was a test roll through a Zeiss box camera. Photos look like they were taken at Omaha Beach.

The last rolls, which was Tri-X 16mm through a MTL3 and some Orwo UN-54 through a Minolta QTsi looks fine. Tri-X is a bit thin but I didn't really develop for it, I developed for the Orwo and just threw it in the tank alongside. Is it fully developed? Who knows, and it doesn't matter to me. The negatives look nice and thick, no issues looking at the negs. It's going to be a while until I scan them but for now it looks like reusing D-76 1:1 for more rolls than I'm supposed to works.

More information.

I mixed 300ml of stock D-76 that I made from powder last week with 300ml room temp tap water. Developed 2 rolls of 135 TMax 30 exposure and 36 exposure, 1 roll of Agfa Aviphot in 120 size and a roll of Orwo UN-54 about 24 exposures and a 2 1/2 foot roll of 16mm cine stock Tri-x. All from the same developer.

relistan · Sep 6, 2023

It's all about volume of developing agents and how much they were exhausted by the previous roll(s), assuming that you use it back-to-back or shortly thereafter. What you are doing by adding time is compensating for exhaustion. It's not quite the same as using the developer more diluted because one-shot developers containing other active ingredients, e.g. sulfite, will almost certainly have more sulfite when re-used than when the whole developer is diluted.

It *is* repeatable assuming that the time between rolls is usually the same. So if you get results you like, then there is no reason to expect that this will not also be true next time, for the exact same conditions. The one caveat is for extremely diluted one-shot developers like 1+100 or higher dilutions. In that case you are often already skirting the limit of active ingredients and it's hard to get the measurements precise enough between sessions for it to be truly repeatable when reused.

I wouldn't generally recommend it, but there's no reason not to do it if you like what you get.

Cholentpot · Sep 6, 2023

relistan said:
It's all about volume of developing agents and how much they were exhausted by the previous roll(s), assuming that you use it back-to-back or shortly thereafter. What you are doing by adding time is compensating for exhaustion. It's not quite the same as using the developer more diluted because one-shot developers containing other active ingredients, e.g. sulfite, will almost certainly have more sulfite when re-used than when the whole developer is diluted.

It *is* repeatable assuming that the time between rolls is usually the same. So if you get results you like, then there is no reason to expect that this will not also be true next time, for the exact same conditions. The one caveat is for extremely diluted one-shot developers like 1+100 or higher dilutions. In that case you are often already skirting the limit of active ingredients and it's hard to get the measurements precise enough between sessions for it to be truly repeatable when reused.

I wouldn't generally recommend it, but there's no reason not to do it if you like what you get.

I was going to bring up high dilutions or stand. I wouldn't be playing this game with Rodinal 1:100 or even HC110 1:100. I don't think it would work at all.

What is relevant though to this whole experiment is currently I can't get ahold of HC110 or D-76. I have a bunch of rolls to develop and a limited amount of developer. Many rolls don't need the best freshest stuff as is. Might as well make use of the shortage and see what I can figure out.

MattKing · Sep 6, 2023

In addition to the issue with exhaustion, development byproducts and how much restraining effect they have play a role.
But if you are really just checking whether things work, and not checking how well they work, why not re-use something that has some life left in it.
Of course, this really means it isn't one-shot developer. It is one and a bit shot developer.

Cholentpot · Sep 6, 2023

MattKing said:
In addition to the issue with exhaustion, development byproducts and how much restraining effect they have play a role.
But if you are really just checking whether things work, and not checking how well they work, why not re-use something that has some life left in it.
Of course, this really means it isn't one-shot developer. It is one and a bit shot developer.

Sure, but like you said it's just seeing if it works. I think this is one of the reasons why I'm still messing around with film. You can easily go off spec and still get results. If I take the battery out of my digital camera it won't work, and I'm not rewriting code to kuldge up the internal programing.

Here I'm taking suspect film and using suspect developer and getting an image. It's technically wrong, out of spec and lots of fun.

MattKing · Sep 6, 2023

Cholentpot said:
It's technically wrong

It isn't wrong. It might be a mistake, or unfortunate, or cause frustration, or end up disappointing you, but no-one but you is going to complain about the results, and with that complaint you would be talking to yourself ..
It would be a bit different if you were advising others to do this, and arguing that the best practices recommendations were just a conspiracy by the developer manufacturers to increase profits.
One of the benefits of hard won experience in this stuff is that you gain an appreciation of when exactitude is necessary, when it is advisable, and when it is over-rated.

relistan · Sep 7, 2023

MattKing said:
In addition to the issue with exhaustion, development byproducts and how much restraining effect they have play a role.

Yes, quite true

Rudeofus · Sep 7, 2023

You seem to be aware of the risks you take with this approach, and so far it has worked well for you. If one liter of D-76 develops 10 rolls of film, then it is absolutely expected, that you can run 5 rolls of film through one liter of D-76 1+1 and see decent development.

Remember, that manufacturers of developers had very different responsibilities: they had to make sure, that their devs work 100% of the time, and that they give consistent results. This includes situations like "first rolls was accidentally exposed to room light and used up much more development agent than expected" and "using D-76 1+3 converts a sizeable amount of its HQ to HQMS, which makes it a totally different dev after the first run".

So far all your "first rolls" were properly exposed, and you didn't care about slight deviations in developer properties. More power to you!

Cholentpot · Sep 7, 2023

Rudeofus said:
You seem to be aware of the risks you take with this approach, and so far it has worked well for you. If one liter of D-76 develops 10 rolls of film, then it is absolutely expected, that you can run 5 rolls of film through one liter of D-76 1+1 and see decent development.

Remember, that manufacturers of developers had very different responsibilities: they had to make sure, that their devs work 100% of the time, and that they give consistent results. This includes situations like "first rolls was accidentally exposed to room light and used up much more development agent than expected" and "using D-76 1+3 converts a sizeable amount of its HQ to HQMS, which makes it a totally different dev after the first run".

So far all your "first rolls" were properly exposed, and you didn't care about slight deviations in developer properties. More power to you!

The slight deviations are already taken care of by decades old rolls of bulk cine film that was stored who knows where. A slightly weaker developer is the least of my problems.

Andrew O'Neill · Sep 7, 2023

As far as reusing a developer, Alan Johnson has a thread where he has been playing around with his CD4-LC developer. I believe he capped it at 10 rolls. Of course, the time is increased for each film.
Personally, I'm a one-shot guy...

Cholentpot · Sep 7, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
As far as reusing a developer, Alan Johnson has a thread where he has been playing around with his CD4-LC developer. I believe he capped it at 10 rolls. Of course, the time is increased for each film.
Personally, I'm a one-shot guy...

You don't wanna know what I do with my C-41 kits...

Andrew O'Neill · Sep 7, 2023

Cholentpot said:
You don't wanna know what I do with my C-41 kits...

Actually, I do!

Cholentpot · Sep 7, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
Actually, I do!

The last one, a powder kit rated for 8 rolls I pushed into the 40's. Every half dozen rolls I'd push the time a bit more on the dev and blix. And yes, while there are obvious color shifts on the rolls, really past roll 30 only, for the film I'm using, expired, or ECNII stuff it doesn't really matter. Either I fix in post or I just roll with it.

This was roll 41, Yashica 44 127 film, Portra 160NC.

I'm switching over to a liquid based C-41 kit this year so I'll see if things are different.

pentaxuser · Sep 7, 2023

Cholentpot said:
The last one, a powder kit rated for 8 rolls I pushed into the 40's. Every half dozen rolls I'd push the time a bit more on the dev and blix. And yes, while there are obvious color shifts on the rolls, really past roll 30 only, for the film I'm using, expired, or ECNII stuff it doesn't really matter. Either I fix in post or I just roll with it.

This was roll 41, Yashica 44 127 film, Portra 160NC.

I'm switching over to a liquid based C-41 kit this year so I'll see if things are different.

The colours look fine to me but only you were there at the time so are they the same as the actual colours? If you can get to 30 rolls from a kit that that is supposed to be OK for only 8 then that appears to be one heck of a safety margin that has been built-in.

If you did some post process alterations can you say if these were of the kind that an RA4 printer using an enlarger could replicate?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Pioneer · Sep 7, 2023

Cholentpot said:
You don't wanna know what I do with my C-41 kits...

I don't shoot a lot of color so I save up my rolls of color film until I have about 20 exposed rolls before I even mix my developer. I can easily develop 20 rolls in a kit that is supposed to have a capacity of 8 rolls. I do it all the time. But I also know the risks. I am usually completely done developing all 20 or so rolls in two days. I'm not saving the developer over several weeks and developing a roll or two as I expose them.

I've never tried 40 rolls. Usually by 20 rolls I am seeing just enough decrease in quality that I cut it off. But who knows? Maybe I'll prowl around fleabay and look for some badly expired color film to play with just to see what happens.

Oh well, that will probably have to wait. I have several rolls of Adox film on the way that I need to test so I'll put this one on the back burner for now.

Reusing one shot developer and other bad practices.

Cholentpot

Kino

FriedLouisStudio

Sirius Glass

Daniela

faberryman

Vaughn

Cholentpot

Sirius Glass

Vaughn

Cholentpot

relistan

Cholentpot

MattKing

Moderator

Cholentpot

MattKing

Moderator

relistan

Rudeofus

Cholentpot

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

Cholentpot

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

Cholentpot

pentaxuser

Pioneer

Reusing one shot developer and other bad practices.

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency