Reusing Microphen doubt

[a.Castro Lorenzo]

Hi guys,

Im about to buy Microphen developer to use with some HP5 rolls, but after reading Ilford tech information I have a doubt.

I have a 270 ml Jobo tank, and Ilford says that Microphen can be reused up to 10 rolls, but, my question is:

Can I use 270ml stock developer 10 times in my tank? or It is usable for 10 rolls per litre only?.

Thanks in advance,
Castro

 

[rpavich]

Hi guys,

Im about to buy Microphen developer to use with some HP5 rolls, but after reading Ilford tech information I have a doubt.

I have a 270 ml Jobo tank, and Ilford says that Microphen can be reused up to 10 rolls, but, my question is:

Can I use 270ml stock developer 10 times in my tank? or It is usable for 10 rolls per litre only?.

Thanks in advance,
Castro

I've dev'd a LOT more than 10 rolls with one batch of Microphen and it's still working fine. I always do a clip test before developing anyway so I don't bother with the count much.

PS: I think that they are referring to the entire batch of chem and not just the amount you are using per roll.

 

[mnemosyne]

I assume 10 rolls is the official capacity per liter as stated by Ilford. So what you do is that you use 270 ml from the 1.000 ml stock to fill your tank and after developing return the developer into the bottle with the remaining 730 ml stock, making it a 1.000 ml of stock again. The next time you develop you take again 270 ml from this (now partially used) stock and after use fill it back in the bottle and so on until you have developed all the 10 rolls. Of course you have to observe the extension factors given by Ilford for the consecutive films developed in partially used developer, as which each roll developed, the developer will lose some activity which has to be compensated by longer development.

While it is rather economic to use the developer in this way, the re-use of developer and the extension factors introduce an element of uncertainty in the whole equation and make it difficult to have perfect control and repeatability in the process. Especially for beginners it is usually better and easier to use developers diluted one shot, simply to remove one more element (extension factors) that complicates the whole procedure.

 

[rpavich]

While it is rather economic to use the developer in this way, the re-use of developer and the extension factors introduce an element of uncertainty in the whole equation and make it difficult to have perfect control and repeatability in the process. Especially for beginners it is usually better and easier to use developers diluted one shot, simply to remove one more element (extension factors) that complicates the whole procedure.

That's a very good point, something worth thinking about.

 

[RJ-]

Hi Lorenzo,

The instructions on the Microphen pack are for guidelines only. I presume your tank can at least hold 300ml of developer, which you will need to completely cover a 35mm roll of film.

As you have no extra fluid capacity, you will risk rapid developer exhaustion must faster than the rate of 10% replenishment indicated on their datasheet. I use Microphen at 1:4 dilution for a 16 litre tank - now going into the 15th dilution. You can push the degrees of dilutions and re-use for development, however the problems do increase drastically with serial dilutions - worse for you using a 300ml tank which makes it more precarious if you are just getting into Microphen.

If you wish to follow the manufacturer's guidelines, then 300ml per tank of stock or diluted Microphen for the 1st roll; reused for the 2nd roll, will require 10% stock addition (i.e. 30ml of stock or diluted ratio Microphen + whatever volume you have lost from fluid transfer (possibly up to 10-20ml). Then for the 3rd roll, you add another 10% stock/diluted Microphen plus whatever lost volume until you reach the higher dilutions. The 5th or 6th dilution is my favourite: at this point, the chemical balance of the used Microphen: replenished stock is incredible however the sweet spot does not last. Alternatively, if you have a larger tank, you can risk higher dilutions.

When you go beyond the 10th dilution, the development and contrast curves for the developer are distinct from the 1st or 2nd dilution but the development marks and aberrations also creep in.

Kind regards,
RJ

 

[rpavich]

When you go beyond the 10th dilution, the development and contrast curves for the developer are distinct from the 1st or 2nd dilution but the development marks and aberrations also creep in.

Kind regards,
RJ

Question: what's a development mark?

 

[RJ-]

Hi,

When the exposed silver of the film (dark areas on negative) are developed, they produce chemical byproducts (called _ bromides). The bromides have no developer potential and can streak, trail, or even lead to adjacency effects such as increased local acutance in some areas, or overdeveloped edge rebates relative to the rest of the film area. They can add something through competitive inhibition with active developer and it is this balance of expired developer byproduct: active developer [Hydroquinone] which diluted Microphen users love.

Generally development marks from using excessively diluted developers can be resolved by agitating the solution: which is why standard film development advises 10 seconds of agitation per minute. However the contrast of the negative image then increases when the negative is developed in an agitated solution - which is why many photographers push to extremes for lower dilutions of developer, as well as less contrasty developers by reducing agitation during development. One extreme form of this is called standing development (not recommended for Microphen). Adjacency effects are not always terrible although the larger the negative area, the more noticeable. Specific forms of adjacency effects (look up Mackies Lines) can result although straight forward development is always a priority over extreme development styles.

Microphen is also a compensating developer - it increases speed gain of the film so when the film is surrounded in a solution of active developer (such as the outer reels of the spiral coil of fiml) compared to the more stationary inner core of the reel where expired developer moves less, the developing becomes inconsistent from frames 36 ---> frame 1 with greater outer reel development.

I love diluted Microphen although I remember what it was like when I first used it in 35mm: it's easier to use one shot Microphen at 1:3 dilution for Ilford HP5+; when this process is consistent, then trialling diluted development.

Kind regards,

RJ

 

[rpavich]

Hi,

When the exposed silver of the film (dark areas on negative) are developed, they produce chemical byproducts (called _ bromides). The bromides have no developer potential and can streak, trail, or even lead to adjacency effects such as increased local acutance in some areas, or overdeveloped edge rebates relative to the rest of the film area. They can add something through competitive inhibition with active developer and it is this balance of expired developer byproduct: active developer [Hydroquinone] which diluted Microphen users love.

Generally development marks from using excessively diluted developers can be resolved by agitating the solution: which is why standard film development advises 10 seconds of agitation per minute. However the contrast of the negative image then increases when the negative is developed in an agitated solution - which is why many photographers push to extremes for lower dilutions of developer, as well as less contrasty developers by reducing agitation during development. One extreme form of this is called standing development (not recommended for Microphen). Adjacency effects are not always terrible although the larger the negative area, the more noticeable. Specific forms of adjacency effects (look up Mackies Lines) can result although straight forward development is always a priority over extreme development styles.

Microphen is also a compensating developer - it increases speed gain of the film so when the film is surrounded in a solution of active developer (such as the outer reels of the spiral coil of fiml) compared to the more stationary inner core of the reel where expired developer moves less, the developing becomes inconsistent from frames 36 ---> frame 1 with greater outer reel development.

I love diluted Microphen although I remember what it was like when I first used it in 35mm: it's easier to use one shot Microphen at 1:3 dilution for Ilford HP5+; when this process is consistent, then trialling diluted development.

Kind regards,

RJ

Well thank you very much for that detailed and accurate explanation! I can attest to having at least one of those problems on my last roll; the overdeveloped rebate areas. I'll mix up a new batch and change my M.O. in this regard.
Even though this wasn't my thread, I thank you for this information.

 

[RJ-]

Hi,

There is a method of development which can avoid the overdeveloped rebate areas which you've found, even with extreme dilutions although it's a little too arcane for a forum.

One of simplest ways to increase consistency in development, is to use a larger tank. I know it can be upsetting to be told to buy a different piece of equipment, however a larger tank, like a 600ml Paterson tank, which can develop 2x 35mm rolls at once, will mean, one roll can be developed with the blank reel trapped below or above the developing reel: the extra fluid capacity significantly reduces the risk of development marks.

Alternatively, if you audit and reflect on your method of agitation and work out where the flow of fluid is moving, you can revise your agitation cycles to reduce the violent hammering and banging which some photographers are in the habit of doing. Photography was never meant to be this way

Good luck!

Kind regards,
RJ

 

[rpavich]

Hi,

There is a method of development which can avoid the overdeveloped rebate areas which you've found, even with extreme dilutions although it's a little too arcane for a forum.

One of simplest ways to increase consistency in development, is to use a larger tank. I know it can be upsetting to be told to buy a different piece of equipment, however a larger tank, like a 600ml Paterson tank, which can develop 2x 35mm rolls at once, will mean, one roll can be developed with the blank reel trapped below or above the developing reel: the extra fluid capacity significantly reduces the risk of development marks.

Alternatively, if you audit and reflect on your method of agitation and work out where the flow of fluid is moving, you can revise your agitation cycles to reduce the violent hammering and banging which some photographers are in the habit of doing. Photography was never meant to be this way

Good luck!

Kind regards,
RJ

Thanks! I happen to have a 2 reel tank now.

 

[RJ-]

Great!

Next step - 5 reel tank and medium format.

Then large format!



RJ

 

[rpavich]

Great!

Next step - 5 reel tank and medium format.

Then large format!



RJ

 

[mnemosyne]

Hi Lorenzo,

The instructions on the Microphen pack are for guidelines only. I presume your tank can at least hold 300ml of developer, which you will need to completely cover a 35mm roll of film.

As you have no extra fluid capacity, you will risk rapid developer exhaustion must faster than the rate of 10% replenishment indicated on their datasheet. I use Microphen at 1:4 dilution for a 16 litre tank - now going into the 15th dilution. You can push the degrees of dilutions and re-use for development, however the problems do increase drastically with serial dilutions - worse for you using a 300ml tank which makes it more precarious if you are just getting into Microphen.

If you wish to follow the manufacturer's guidelines, then 300ml per tank of stock or diluted Microphen for the 1st roll; reused for the 2nd roll, will require 10% stock addition (i.e. 30ml of stock or diluted ratio Microphen + whatever volume you have lost from fluid transfer (possibly up to 10-20ml). Then for the 3rd roll, you add another 10% stock/diluted Microphen plus whatever lost volume until you reach the higher dilutions. The 5th or 6th dilution is my favourite: at this point, the chemical balance of the used Microphen: replenished stock is incredible however the sweet spot does not last. Alternatively, if you have a larger tank, you can risk higher dilutions.

When you go beyond the 10th dilution, the development and contrast curves for the developer are distinct from the 1st or 2nd dilution but the development marks and aberrations also creep in.

Kind regards,
RJ

The OP was referring to the re-use of stock dilution without replenishment as described in the standard Ilford instructions for Microphen.

IMO you are confusing the OP (obviously a beginner to b&w film processing) with unnecessary complicated and confusing details and instructions for some kind of esoteric replenishment regime which he didn't ask for and he was clearly not referring to. While the process suggested by you may work perfectly, it is doubtful whether all this is of any benefit for a person who is about to develop his first roll of film, rather the contrary.

When the OP clearly states that his tank needs 260ml to cover a roll of 35mm film (typical for the Jobo 1510 series tank), there is absolutely no need to talk him into using 300ml instead and thereby potentially overfilling the tank (or buying a larger tank!). 260 ml is a perfectly fine volume and contains ample developing agent to develop a roll of 35mm film either full strength or 1+1 dilution in Microphen.

So, rather than to unnecessarily over complicate things I would strongly recommend the OP to stick to the instructions that came with the developer.

 

[bsdunek]

I assume 10 rolls is the official capacity per liter as stated by Ilford. So what you do is that you use 270 ml from the 1.000 ml stock to fill your tank and after developing return the developer into the bottle with the remaining 730 ml stock, making it a 1.000 ml of stock again. The next time you develop you take again 270 ml from this (now partially used) stock and after use fill it back in the bottle and so on until you have developed all the 10 rolls. Of course you have to observe the extension factors given by Ilford for the consecutive films developed in partially used developer, as which each roll developed, the developer will lose some activity which has to be compensated by longer development.

While it is rather economic to use the developer in this way, the re-use of developer and the extension factors introduce an element of uncertainty in the whole equation and make it difficult to have perfect control and repeatability in the process. Especially for beginners it is usually better and easier to use developers diluted one shot, simply to remove one more element (extension factors) that complicates the whole procedure.

This is the way I understand it. Years ago, Dad & I did this with his Microdol-X. After development, the solution was returned to the bottle that held the entire batch. This was mixed and then the next amount came out of the bottle.

I live Microphen (now that Microdol-X is no longer available), but I use it diluted (except when using a Minox tank), and discard. With 1:3 dilution, it goes a long way and is very consistent.

 

[john_s]

For what it's worth, in the Agfa pdf files for film development, they cited time extensions for reusing developer with the caveat that if the time between films was significant (sorry I don't remember, maybe a week) then the system was not recommended.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The few times that I have used Microphen I have never had any problems reusing it according to Ilford's directions.

While bromide is introduced by each roll developed phenidone developers like Microphen are more resistant to bromide buildup than MQ ones. I doubt that you will have any problems following Ilford's directions.