Return of Purple - Hopefully Last Few Issues

Hey folks, how are we doing?

You may remember my thread from here:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

discussing some rather serious skin sensitivity issues with *something* in my darkroom. Well, my last attack put me off for a year, and my darkroom was left to the attentions of my other half.

I'm now starting to get back into it. I grabbed a Nova tank, which had very little effect (although is remarkably space efficient). I also purchased an air "purifier" designed to remove the nasties from the atmosphere (I can't remember who recommended that to me). Even with both, it was still an uncomfortable experience.

I then did some skin tests with the following:

Neutol Plus (at working dilation)
Ilford Stop (at working dilation)
Plain hypo (480g in 2l water as per Darkroom Cookbook)

Of the three, Neutol and Stop caused no reaction. The hypo though exploded into a rash which hasn't gone away yet (it's been over two weeks). So I think I've worked out where the problem is.

I spent a four hour session in the darkroom on Saturday, working with the above, and being exceptionally careful, exiting the darkroom every three prints to wash them in the bath (just RC paper) and to wash down with cold water face and hands.

On the plus side, we have reduced irritation. I am not in crippling pain, so that's a good thing Rashing *has* appeared, on the insides of my elbows and in certain spots on my face. Since I have an utterly gorgeous appearance I'm not settling for this just yet.

A chemistry teacher I was talking to was rather "shocked" by the ratio of 480g of Hypo in 2L water, she thought it was rather excessive. I am tempted to try again with a lower dilution, but not knowing enough about the chemistry myself I'm not particularly happy with messing with the chemical ratios without a little help. How weak can I make hypo and it still be effective for print fixing? And what times will I be looking at?

(I'm also looking at a Jobo - but one step at a time ;-))

Have you thought about using alkali fix? Never used it myself but could be a good option for you.

Diluting the hypo won't stop your sensitivity. That ratio is standard. and not excessive as it's decahydrated crystal anyway with water.

You could try finding an Ilfospeed processor which would mean you need have virtually no contact with the fixer at all.

It's strange to be sensitive to Sodium Thiosulphate, as it was used medically to treat cyanide poisoning, was it fresh or used ? It's also used in some medical skin lotions.

Ian

Hi!

I had also little problems with skin. Not in percent of yours, but also painfull. I think it was akalines, but that was my case. Not putting hands into baths was enough

Are the fumes irritating for you? Or only baths?

*Plain* hypo should not be irritating. Plain means for chemical analisys, so it's really close to be 100% pure.

Feeling like some kind of your mother, but:

In photographic chemistry there always some small ammounts of other things, they may cause tour problem as well.

Next: there are lots of things in water and in trays/tanks, so try to use distilled water and 100% clean tools. The dirt may not be a problem itself, but after a reaction with hypo - who knows?

Have you tried in your skin tests plain hypo fresh or after fixing a film? Maybe the silver salts are irritating for you?

If you try something on your skin, choose leg or your back, and use a single, very small drop, don't put hand in soup. Mark the place with something sticky and hypoalergic. Some things, like sweat or soap may react with hypo.
There are some other fixing agents (some ammonia thiosulfate salts, this may be much more irritating, but woth trying).
And you can probably use salt (NaCl), as it was used in XIX century, I believe. I don't know any details, so please share if you find any

Please forgive me my spelling. I'm Polish artist, not a British chemistry engineer

Cheers,
Luke

I too developed contact dermatitis. In my case, Metol was the culprit. My answer is the Jobo system. I do everything in drums (they have film and print drums). Never touch the actual chemistry. As long as I keep the darkroom really clean (which we should all do anyway) and all the equipment equally clean (ditto), no problems. When I'm in the darkroom I always run the fan also. But just because this works for me doesn't mean it will work for anyone else. Clearly, YMMV.

I have to echo Ian's comment. It is virtually unheard of to have a sensitivity to hypo. The chemical is so benign that I am really surprised to hear that plain hypo should cause such a problem. Are you sure it was plain hypo?

PE

Dear Purple,

Do you use gloves and/or tongs? Personally, I keep my hands out of the chemicals. No sensitivity issues but they smell a lot better! ;>)

Neal Wydra

Photo Engineer said:

I have to echo Ian's comment. It is virtually unheard of to have a sensitivity to hypo. The chemical is so benign that I am really surprised to hear that plain hypo should cause such a problem. Are you sure it was plain hypo?

PE

Click to expand...

It's injected intravenously for Cyanide & arsenic poisoning too !

Ian

I am surprised that hypo would be the culprit.

Plain hypo (480g in 2l water as per Darkroom Cookbook)

Click to expand...

What did the solid form look like before it was mixed?

People can be allergic to unusual things. Peanut butter and the "freezing" dentists and doctors use for instance. I'd try Tobias's idea and use an alkalai fixer, which presumably does not contain sodium thiosulphate (?).

I would be surprised that alkaline fixers would solve the problem. If he is allergic to hypo, he will be allergic to both sodium and ammonium forms.

As for allergies, well, no one can say what they will some day be sensitive to. I'm just surprised, thats all.

PE

You should know that allergic responses can be exponential in behavior. You do not want to discover one day (soon) that you have reached a point in your allergic reaction(s) where you cannot just walk out of the darkroom.

The most likely culprit is Metol in the developer. It is possible that your reaction is sufficiently delayed that it only seems the fixer is the culprit. You may also be having a reaction only to a combination of chemicals. But, even if we assume for the moment that the developer is innocent, the one fact we have established to a certainty is that you are indeed allergic to SOMETHING in your darkroom (I am assuming you do not have a gaggle of cats in there). Having established the certain existence of ONE allergy, this means that you have the potential to quickly develop more allergies to other chemicals and since the most common, serious and potentially fatal chemical allergy in the darkroom is Metol, it would be prudent to immediately and forever replace Metol in your darkroom, regardless of whatever other facts come to light in the future.

I believe that all of Ilford's paper developers (are they still in this business?) are phenidone based and therefore safe or at least a great deal safer.

Since ammonium thiosulfate is a more effective paper fixer with respect to archival processing than sodium th. I would make that step #2. If you are still having reactions after those two changes, though it is very possible to track down the culprit specifically, I would suggest at least considering that chemical based photography may just have it in for you and it may be time to consider ones and zeros as a healthier alternative.

Lastly, if you decide to continue with chemical based photography regardless, it would be very wise from this point on to always wear rubber gloves, regardless of chemical changes you make. I had a student at one of my workshops who put on a fresh rubber glove for each and every piece of paper processed because he was worried that he MIGHT develop an allergy.

I thought this was pretty funny, but you know what, I ended up doing the same thing! Not because I was worried about allergies, but because it reduced problems in the darkroom.

dk

So I work in my darkroom, pretty careful, gloves tongs. ventilation, no problems. I have an inkjet print made, and get the UV blocking spray, treat the print outside, and get the rash of my lifetime. Very clear wherever skin was exposed when spraying the print. Nasty. Never had a reaction before or since to anything else. The point? It can be anything at any time. I always thought allergies (in my case, actually a reaction, rather than a bona fide allergy) were something that I heard about other persons having. It seems trivial, until it happens to you. I was lucky in that the pattern of the rash and timing of the reaction made it pretty clear where and when and what my exposure came from. In the darkroom you are exposed to so much at the same time that drawing any conclusion from a session is rather suspect, because reaction time from exposure can be delayed. I would strongly suspect a developer is the culprit, although anything is possible.

It's not so very unusual to have an allergy to thiosulphate (it often goes with being sensitive to sulphite preservatives in food and drinks). It is worth doing a test where you only expose yourself to fixer, i.e. zero use of developer beforehand, but once you have determined that plain thiosulphate is the culprit, you should refrain from challenging your allergy.

Unfortunately thiosulphate fix is the one chemical it is hardest to live without in the darkroom, at least with silver printing. Perhaps now is the time to become a master Pt or Carbon printer. Or, go digital. Dying for your art becomes less attractive when there is a real chance of it actually happening

There are some good desensitisation treatments for some allergies, but you need to find an allergy specialist who knows what they're talking about, and for something that 'only' interferes with your hobby you may well have to go private. Be very wary of old wives tales or home cures: you can end up making things much, much worse.

Reading your thread, I have assumed that the rash is the result of fumes rather than actual liquid contact and if so the standby of marigold gloves which go way up the arm will not work. However if in fact it is minute droplets then such gloves should work. Alternatively consider a Nova Quad processor. With one of those, contact with the liquid is absolutely zero and if it is fumes then the surface area is very small as each slot is about an inch wide and ten inches long so 10 square inches as opposed to trays which have 80 square inches. It might even be possible to construct a top for the fixer/dev slot to reduce the area to less than half an inch and still be possible to sink and agitate the print.

There are powerful filters available such as the Filtaire 300 which are said to remove and neutralise fumes very effectively. The downside is that a Nova quad then a Filtaire starts to cost quite a lot and you'd want to know it would work first.

An appointment with your GP and a referral to an allergy clinic is certainly worthwhile.

Best of luck

pentaxuser

purple said:

Hey folks, how are we doing?

You may remember my thread from here:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

discussing some rather serious skin sensitivity issues with *something* in my darkroom. Well, my last attack put me off for a year, and my darkroom was left to the attentions of my other half.

I'm now starting to get back into it. I grabbed a Nova tank, which had very little effect (although is remarkably space efficient). I also purchased an air "purifier" designed to remove the nasties from the atmosphere (I can't remember who recommended that to me). Even with both, it was still an uncomfortable experience.

I then did some skin tests with the following:

Neutol Plus (at working dilation)
Ilford Stop (at working dilation)
Plain hypo (480g in 2l water as per Darkroom Cookbook)

Of the three, Neutol and Stop caused no reaction. The hypo though exploded into a rash which hasn't gone away yet (it's been over two weeks). So I think I've worked out where the problem is.

I spent a four hour session in the darkroom on Saturday, working with the above, and being exceptionally careful, exiting the darkroom every three prints to wash them in the bath (just RC paper) and to wash down with cold water face and hands.

On the plus side, we have reduced irritation. I am not in crippling pain, so that's a good thing Rashing *has* appeared, on the insides of my elbows and in certain spots on my face. Since I have an utterly gorgeous appearance I'm not settling for this just yet.

A chemistry teacher I was talking to was rather "shocked" by the ratio of 480g of Hypo in 2L water, she thought it was rather excessive. I am tempted to try again with a lower dilution, but not knowing enough about the chemistry myself I'm not particularly happy with messing with the chemical ratios without a little help. How weak can I make hypo and it still be effective for print fixing? And what times will I be looking at?

(I'm also looking at a Jobo - but one step at a time ;-))

Click to expand...

You should see a doctor who specializes in allergies, hypo is sodium thiosulfate, and contains sulphur, and some people are allergic to sulphur and sulfates, if you are then you should avoid sulfa drugs as well. You also want to be tested for Metol, as that bothers some people. You really should, when testing such hings, apply one, wait 2 hours (minimum - next day is better), apply the next (to a different part of the body), wait 2 hours, test the next. This makes sure that the reaction is is to the chemical you think it is. An allergist can guide you through the process of seeing what it is.

There are also sensitizing agents, these are agents that weaken your defences, so that something that normally would not bother you, does. One place is to check your darkroom over with a strong light, look for things like moulds in wet areas, like around the sink and back-splash. If you have filters on incoming air to the darkroom, make sure those are replaced on a regular basis, also check all fans on outgoing air, to make sure that they are clean and working properly. If you have a forced air HVAC, then check that filter as well, especially if there is a register in the darkroom (if there is it, should have a separate filter in it).

You might investigate Dead Link Removed and X-tol as a developer option. I'd also suggest using a barrier cream and gloves. If it turns out to be the hypo or fumes there are non-silver processes such as platinum, cyanotype, etc., that do not employ hypo.