Retouching

Jarvman · Sep 28, 2006

I was thinking about buying a set of those retouching pens to keep handy should I need to retouch a print. They seem (to me) like a good solution to hiding marks in a print, although expensive. I haven't had any real experience with retouching and have never really used the dyes myself. What would you reccomend?

Donald Miller · Sep 28, 2006

I have no experience with the pens. My thoughts are that they are probably good...I wonder at how fine the tips are and the other thing is how effectively one can control the "value" in the retouched area.

My experience has been with dyes exclusively. I still have some Spotone as well as Veronica Cass dyes. Both of these companies are no longer in business. However, I noticed that B & H photo does list Berg retouching dyes in bottles of varying warmth etc...These are what I would choose if I were starting out today. I use a 4/0 and a 10/0 brush for retouching prints. The dyes are applied almost dry. And the "density or value" is built up with several applications. They can be diluted so that if one is working in a cloudy sky, for instance, you can get the proper "value" to the dye application.

Good luck.

ann · Sep 28, 2006

marshall's also has a set of spotting dyes,

you might also find spotone on ebay or at other vendors. a small bottle goes a long way.

Marc Leest · Sep 28, 2006

Well, Plain and simple: retouching is a PITA. I use Schmincke dye-lasur with a 00 mink brush. Only the idea of retouching forces me to print better.

Donald Miller · Sep 28, 2006

Marc Leest said:
Well, Plain and simple: retouching is a PITA. I use Schmincke dye-lasur with a 00 mink brush. Only the idea of retouching forces me to print better.

Since I converted my condenser enlarger to a point light source condenser, I have spotting to do on each and every print. Spotting has gotten to be routine and not a hated part of my practice. I would rather spot than deal with the soft light of a diffusion head.

pentaxuser · Sep 28, 2006

I have a set of Tetenal pens for non warmtone prints. There is also a set of pens for warmtone prints. Yes they are expensive but are instant in terms of use and the range covers all the shades.

It's worth using a magnifying glass and erring on the side of starting with a lighter shade than you think is right. Just touch the paper very lightly and give it a few minutes to sink in before applying more. Gloss paper is much more difficult to spot than pearl, satin or matt unless the area is very small. In fact if the area to spot is larger than a couple of millimetres, then pens may not be the best answer but if that is the case then see below

Unless the problems lies in the negative's emulsion and cannot be rid of by cleaning the neg and if there are several spots, I'd be inclined to try to repeat the print rather than spot.

On the plus side, my experience and this may give you hope, is that most negs in a diffuser enlarger do not have spots. Secondly you can expect the pens to last a very long time. The first set may be the only set you'll ever need to buy.

Best of luck

pentaxuser

jstraw · May 9, 2007

To deal with dust spots on my negative I've done two things. I've gotten maniacal about avoiding dust in the first place and I've tried to figure out to do about important negatives that have these spots.

Using Spotpen's bleach pens on the resulting black spots on prints, then using their dye pens to bring the tone back up has been unsatisfactory. In another thread, Ron Mowrey has mentioned the surface texture on the back of sheet film has some texture to facilitate retouching.

Would it be recommended that I correct these dust voids on the negative rather than the print? Does anyone have experience doing this?

Snapshot · May 9, 2007

I too have a question on touching up prints. How does one touch up RC glossy paper? I'm finding that the Marshall's touch up ink doesn't want to stay where I place it. Any tips?

Ian Grant · May 9, 2007

I think I'd prefer to use Spotone, I have plenty left, as I rarely need to retouch.

But its far better to be able to mix an exact colour and strenght when retouching so no pens for me.

In the attached image I had to retouch myself out of the image. A better explanation, I had the 5x4 camera on a tripod, deep in an abandoned manganese mine, I had 3 other photographers with me and had instructed them all to paint the cavern. I asked each for 20 full power flashes

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

This is the only image from that 90min trip, it's the only image I made. No-one else got a useable image.

To retouch so heavily you need to use a brush.

Ian

Ian Grant · May 9, 2007

You need aretouching dye not an ink

Inks typically contain insoluble pigments so on drying will sit on the emulsion surfarce, dyes are dissolved and so absorbed.

Ian

Snapshot said:
I too have a question on touching up prints. How does one touch up RC glossy paper? I'm finding that the Marshall's touch up ink doesn't want to stay where I place it. Any tips?

jstraw · May 9, 2007

So...anyone retouch negatives?

pentaxuser · May 9, 2007

Snapshot said:
I too have a question on touching up prints. How does one touch up RC glossy paper? I'm finding that the Marshall's touch up ink doesn't want to stay where I place it. Any tips?

My experience with Tetenal Spot pens is that the touch up will stay where it is placed even with RC glossy but until several hours later it will appear to stay on the surface and look as if it has been spotted BUT should eventually sink in to the emulsion and disappear. The tips are very fine. There is little danger of over touching even if the spot is very small. I'd use a magnifying glass and light box if you can.

RC glossy is not ideal for spotting, pearl, satin or matt are much easier but just have faith. Again I'd be inclined to use a lighter shade than you think will work. The next day you can judge whether a darker shade is needed or even a little more of the same. Patience is the key.

Don't expect to see an area for touch up and then touch up 5 minutes before you hand over the print. It will show.

Pens are not meant for large area touch up or multi-spots. If this is required then I'd look at the neg and enlarger lens to see if cleaning can help and then re-print.

pentaxuser

Jim Jones · May 10, 2007

I've used Spotone for decades. A possible replacement is Dr. Ph Martin's Synchromatic transparent water color dye Dead Link Removed. Older Dr. Martin's dyes seemed to work well for sepia prints.

Paul Howell · May 10, 2007

jstraw said:
So...anyone retouch negatives?

I took a class in collage which included retouching black and white negatives. Retouching 4X5 is doable, MF and 35, need very good eye, some talent, and lots of practice. I was not very good at it. With Photo Shop I think it may be a lost art.

Mike Michaelski · May 10, 2007

Paul is right, 4 x 5 or larger should be doable. I have an Adams Film Retouching Machine which is built to do exactly that. Even so, unless you only enlarge slightly (less than 4 X), retouching the final print is a lot easier.
Mike

jstraw · May 10, 2007

It would seem to me that when dealing with a dust spot on the emulsion that leaves nothing there but clear film base, even if retouching the negative simply made that spot opaque, resulting in paper base with no tone in the print, retouching a white spot on the print is far easier than retouching a black spot.

Christopher Nisperos · May 10, 2007

jstraw said:
So...anyone retouch negatives?

yep

Christopher Nisperos · May 10, 2007

jstraw said:
It would seem to me that when dealing with a dust spot on the emulsion that leaves nothing there but clear film base, even if retouching the negative simply made that spot opaque, resulting in paper base with no tone in the print, retouching a white spot on the print is far easier than retouching a black spot.

yep

Paul Howell · May 10, 2007

Most of the negative retouching that was done was not done for spotting, retouching was done to fix badly cracked negatives, fill in for missing or faded elements, or create highlights or other wise enhance a photo. Sometimes a copy negative, black and white or color, would be created usually a 4X5 or
8X10, then experts used air brushes to fixes also sorts of blemishes. Ad agencies did a lot of air brushing. The Russians altered photos to take out people who were in disfavor.

Charles Webb · May 11, 2007

Looking back through the archives you will find that I have mentioned some of the trials of retouching.

Retouching in the beginning was totally for vanity purposes. Other uses for it came much later, in the early days of photography there was no "old and cracked) pictures that did not come along for another 50 years.

A negative to one who really knows retouching with pencil and dye is quick and very easy to do. All the Adam's machine does for you is move the negative under the pencil rather a skillful hand making tiny figure eights with a super sharp pencil lead on the base side of the negative.
Retouching seldom was done on the emulsion side because of the difficulty of keeping it from showing in the finished print. It was however used if that was the only way you could build density. Crocein Scarlet dye was much easier to use to build up a weak area. A scratch on the base side of the film will always appear white in the final print. A scratch in the emulsion will always appear black in your finished print. Dust will appear white in the print regardless of the side of the film it is on. A scratch in the emulsion can be repaired ocassionaly by abrading the base exactly over or directly over emulsion side scratch. the side with a needle or other sharp instrument (retuching knife). Kodak made and supplied these tools until just rescently. The reason one normally trys to retouch on the base side especially when enlarging is due to the film thickness, the retouching is rendered softer and less noticable because one normally focuses the enlarger on the grain of the film. The thickness of the film itself adds a bit of diffusion between the grain and the lead applied to the back of the film. There are still a few of us hanging on that
would at times retouch 25 or 30,000 negatives a year as well as operate the camera.

Retouching negatives is not easy, there is no magic wand,
experience and practice is the only way to learn. Applying dye to a transparancy with an air brush also has a strong learning curve, this learning curve is why few ever master
retouching.

Charlie.............................

jstraw · May 11, 2007

I'm going to try a little kodak retouching fluid, applied with a cottons swab, to the base side where the dust voids are and then use a very sharp, No. 2 pencil to build some density.

I'll let you know how that goes.

Charles Webb · May 11, 2007

jstraw said:
I'm going to try a little kodak retouching fluid, applied with a cottons swab, to the base side where the dust voids are and then use a very sharp, No. 2 pencil to build some density.

It is difficult to retouch with a #2 pencil as it does not allow itself to become sharp enough using a mechanical sharpener. Individual drafting leads available at an art supply store are what is needed. The majority of my negatives are done with an HB lead. To properly sharpen it you make an envelope of folded 400 grit sand paper. Tape the 2 sides with masking tape to keep the ground graphite off of everything. Using a Lead holder an adjustable drafting pencil (also available from the art store ) extend the lead out about 21/2 to 3 inches, place the extended tip of lead into your sand paper envelope.
With a pumping and twisting motion shape the lead into a long tapered (2 inches or more) needle shape. The long tapered lead delivers a very fine point of lead to the negative. The correct retouching motion is much like a tiny figure eight. The long tapered lead not only applies the lead controled by your steady hand, but serves as a pressure gauge as to how much pressure your hand applies to the negative. If the tiny sharpened tip breaks off, you have applied too much pressure. Re sharpen and begin again.

Use a very small amount of the retouching fluid most everyone at first applies to much. You know when you have too much, as the strings of the cotten ball begin to
pull out and deposit them selves on your negative. The fluid from the bottle usually has been in there for awhile so the viscosity is way heavier than is needed and should for best results be thinned. Apply a tiny drop on the cotten ball and apply it in a smooth circular motion as thin as possible, the fluid creates the tooth necessary for the lead to grab the neg.

The weight of the lead holder and lead are about the correct amount of pressure need to retouch a neg.

Charlie............................

Christopher Nisperos · May 11, 2007

Charles Webb said:
Looking back through the archives you will find that I have mentioned some of the trials of retouching.

Retouching in the beginning was totally for vanity purposes. Other uses for it came much later, in the early days of photography there was no "old and cracked) pictures that did not come along for another 50 years.

A negative to one who really knows retouching with pencil and dye is quick and very easy to do. All the Adam's machine does for you is move the negative under the pencil rather a skillful hand making tiny figure eights with a super sharp pencil lead on the base side of the negative.
Retouching seldom was done on the emulsion side because of the difficulty of keeping it from showing in the finished print. It was however used if that was the only way you could build density. Crocein Scarlet dye was much easier to use to build up a weak area. A scratch on the base side of the film will always appear white in the final print. A scratch in the emulsion will always appear black in your finished print. Dust will appear white in the print regardless of the side of the film it is on. A scratch in the emulsion can be repaired ocassionaly by abrading the base exactly over or directly over emulsion side scratch. the side with a needle or other sharp instrument (retuching knife). Kodak made and supplied these tools until just rescently. The reason one normally trys to retouch on the base side especially when enlarging is due to the film thickness, the retouching is rendered softer and less noticable because one normally focuses the enlarger on the grain of the film. The thickness of the film itself adds a bit of diffusion between the grain and the lead applied to the back of the film. There are still a few of us hanging on that
would at times retouch 25 or 30,000 negatives a year as well as operate the camera.

Retouching negatives is not easy, there is no magic wand,
experience and practice is the only way to learn. Applying dye to a transparancy with an air brush also has a strong learning curve, this learning curve is why few ever master
retouching.

Charlie.............................

Charlie,

You sure know what the heck you're talking about.
Hats off.

Christopher

jstraw · May 11, 2007

Charles Webb said:
jstraw said:

I'm going to try a little kodak retouching fluid, applied with a cottons swab, to the base side where the dust voids are and then use a very sharp, No. 2 pencil to build some density.

It is difficult to retouch with a #2 pencil as it does not allow itself to become sharp enough using a mechanical sharpener. Individual drafting leads available at an art supply store are what is needed. The majority of my negatives are done with an HB lead. To properly sharpen it you make an envelope of folded 400 grit sand paper. Tape the 2 sides with masking tape to keep the ground graphite off of everything. Using a Lead holder an adjustable drafting pencil (also available from the art store ) extend the lead out about 21/2 to 3 inches, place the extended tip of lead into your sand paper envelope.
With a pumping and twisting motion shape the lead into a long tapered (2 inches or more) needle shape. The long tapered lead delivers a very fine point of lead to the negative. The correct retouching motion is much like a tiny figure eight. The long tapered lead not only applies the lead controled by your steady hand, but serves as a pressure gauge as to how much pressure your hand applies to the negative. If the tiny sharpened tip breaks off, you have applied too much pressure. Re sharpen and begin again.

Use a very small amount of the retouching fluid most everyone at first applies to much. You know when you have too much, as the strings of the cotten ball begin to
pull out and deposit them selves on your negative. The fluid from the bottle usually has been in there for awhile so the viscosity is way heavier than is needed and should for best results be thinned. Apply a tiny drop on the cotten ball and apply it in a smooth circular motion as thin as possible, the fluid creates the tooth necessary for the lead to grab the neg.

The weight of the lead holder and lead are about the correct amount of pressure need to retouch a neg.

Charlie............................

Click to expand...

Wonderful info, Charlie. Thank you.

Chazzy · May 11, 2007

Charles Webb said:
The fluid from the bottle usually has been in there for awhile so the viscosity is way heavier than is needed and should for best results be thinned.

Thinned with what? I suppose it would need to be a solvent which dries rapidly.

Retouching

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