Requesting for details on opening, storing, using chemistry

lukajaku · Nov 28, 2023

Hello,

I‘ve recently bought film chemistry for the first time (1. Ilford Ilfotec LC29 (500ml), 2. Ilford Rapid Fixer (500ml), 3. Foma Fomacitro stop-bath (250ml), 4. Foma Wetting Agent Fotonal (250ml)). I‘ve also bought distiled water. I know that it might be too much chemicals as for the first time but for this topic I would like to ask for your recommendations on storing these chemicals. I‘ve chosen to store chemicals inside 3 different types of plastic containers (1. KAISER Collapsible bottles (1000ml) x3, 2. Jobo Wide-Neck bottles (1000ml) x3, 3. Unkown brand plastic bottle white (1000ml) x2). So I have 8 bottles in total to store chemistry and I really want to optimize the shelf-life of that chemistry as much as possible. I know that it‘s very important to reduce the air in these plastic containers since by doing it I can extend the shelf-life of chemistry but there are other things which are unclear to me.

1. I‘ve read that storing distiled water in the refrigerator can extend it life, does it also apply to film chemistry? In my room the temperature is 23ºC / ~73ºF and Iford recommends to store chemicals at 5–20ºC so I‘m not sure if it‘s a good idea to store chemistry in the refrigerator.
2. Do I understand it right that there is no need to make stock solution when using Ilford Ilfotec LC29 developer because it‘s already high dilution liquid concentrate? Instead of it I should make 1+9 / 1+19 / 1+29 working solution once I open the bottle for the first time? If I‘m wrong then is it recommended to apply 1+3 formula (as with Ilfotec HC) to make a stock solution out of unopened bottle and only after that mix a working solution? Also if I‘m right then is it better to transfer the developer from the original bottle to the collapsible bottle since I‘ll probably won‘t use more than 50 ml of concentrated developer for working solution at once?
3. On Ilford photo web there is a technical information about ILFOTEC LC29 in which it‘s written that „ILFOTEC LC29 developer concentrate should keep in good condition for: 24 months in full tightly capped bottles, 4 months in half full tightly capped bottles“. In forums I‘ve read that mixed developers can last up to 6 months in full stopped bottles. Is full tightly / stopped means unopened bottle with no exceptions? Or is it possible to open that bottle for the first time and after making stock / working solution out of it still reach the state of full stopped bottle by collapsing the bottle for example?
4. I also want to ask about the Ilford Rapid fixer. What are your methods after opening fresh bottle? Do you dilute it only to working solution (if so is it 1+4?) only when you need to develop? Or are you making stock solution out of Ilford Rapid fixer at first? What was the longest shelf-life with your method?

Forgive me for the length of this text and please share your thoughts on this topic.

Thank you!

Don_ih · Nov 28, 2023

You only need to protect the developer. Ilford says you can expect the concentrate to last 4 months after opening - I'd follow that or split the concentrate into two 250ml bottles with no air in them. You use a small amount when you develop, add it to water, then dump when done (it's one-shot).

Mix your fixer to the working strength and reuse it until it wears out. You might be able to find a number of rolls that 500ml of working-strength fixer will do safely. (Also, do not refrigerate fixer.)

Most times for developing b&w film are for 20 degrees so you will need to either cool your stuff down or adjust the time. Ilford has a diagram that shows you how to adjust. 3 degrees is quite significant.

lukajaku · Nov 28, 2023

Don_ih said:
You only need to protect the developer. Ilford says you can expect the concentrate to last 4 months after opening - I'd follow that or split the concentrate into two 250ml bottles with no air in them. You use a small amount when you develop, add it to water, then dump when done (it's one-shot).

Mix your fixer to the working strength and reuse it until it wears out. You might be able to find a number of rolls that 500ml of working-strength fixer will do safely. (Also, do not refrigerate fixer.)

Most times for developing b&w film are for 20 degrees so you will need to either cool your stuff down or adjust the time. Ilford has a diagram that shows you how to adjust. 3 degrees is quite significant.

Thank you so much, Don! I'll use these tips.

MattKing · Nov 28, 2023

One caution - those collapsible “accordion” bottles look like they would be a good idea but they really are not. They are extremely difficult to completely clean, and they often leak air.
Outside of that, you should be happy if you follow Don’s suggestions.
And by the way - have fun!

lukajaku · Nov 28, 2023

MattKing said:
One caution - those collapsible “accordion” bottles look like they would be a good idea but they really are not. They are extremely difficult to completely clean, and they often leak air.
Outside of that, you should be happy if you follow Don’s suggestions.
And by the way - have fun!

Thank you, Matt. After this overthinking I'll certainly have fun!

I've read that glass bottles are also an option. Do you prefer glass bottles for storing chemistry?

runswithsizzers · Nov 28, 2023

lukajaku said:
I also want to ask about the Ilford Rapid fixer. What are your methods after opening fresh bottle? Do you dilute it only to working solution (if so is it 1+4?) only when you need to develop? Or are you making stock solution out of Ilford Rapid fixer at first? What was the longest shelf-life with your method?

Much information can be found in the manufacturer's tech sheets. Suggest you read those carefully. I believe lford's publication, "TECHNICAL INFORMATION RAPID FIXER" gives Ilford's official answers to all your questions.

On the other hand, the manufacturer's recommendations for shelf life tend to be conservative. That is good when following Ilford's recommendations prevents you from discovering - several years later - that your film was not properly fixed because you used bad fixer. But it may cause some to throw away unopened 2-year-old fixer which would have probably worked just fine. You will have to decide for yourself which of those two scenarios scares you the most.

From a practical viewpoint, if the fixer smells normal (does not smell like sulfur), looks normal (no precipitate or cloudiness) and passes the fixer clearing test, then it is quite likely ok to use. Of course, it takes some experience to learn what "normal" means, so the manufacturer's recommendations are a good place for beginners to start.

Here is a link to a procedure provided by Matt King for doing a "film fixer clip test" also known as the "fixer clearing test" <FILM FIXER CLIP TEST>

I like Matt King's clearing test procedure better than the one below, but Troop and Anchell provide some additional advice which I underlined:
From "The Film Developing Cookbook" by Bill Troop and Steve Anchell:
"Ideally, fixer clearing time should be tested before each use. From a practical standpoint, testing every third time should be adequate. Keep in mind that clearing times are different for every fillm. So if you are checking clearing time throughout the life of a batch of fixer, make sure
you use the same kind of film each time to do the checking. You want to know what clearing time is for Film A when the fixer is absolutely fresh, and you want to know when clearing time for Film A doubles.

Determining clearing time: With the lights on, place 1-2 inches of 120 film or the 35mm leader in fresh fixer. With gentle agitation observe how long it takes the film to become completely transparent, or clear. This is the clearing time. Multiply the clearing time by two (conventional advice) or three (our advice) for your total fixing time.

As the fixer is used the clearing time will increase. Test whenever convenient. When the clearing time doubles from the fresh test, discard the fixer. It is best practice to use fixer for no more than 20 8x10 square inches of film per liter."

MattKing · Nov 28, 2023

lukajaku said:
I've read that glass bottles are also an option. Do you prefer glass bottles for storing chemistry?

Yes - but they are heavier, and more fragile than heavy plastic.
If you are going to use glass, re-fillable beer "growlers" work well:'

Romanko · Nov 28, 2023

lukajaku said:
Do you prefer glass bottles for storing chemistry?

Yes. Wide-mouth amber glass lab bottles. I use 1L volume for working solutions (developer and fixer) and 250ml for storing HC-110 concentrate.

lukajaku · Nov 28, 2023

runswithsizzers said:
Much information can be found in the manufacturer's tech sheets. Suggest you read those carefully. I believe lford's publication, "TECHNICAL INFORMATION RAPID FIXER" gives Ilford's official answers to all your questions.

On the other hand, the manufacturer's recommendations for shelf life tend to be conservative. That is good when following Ilford's recommendations prevents you from discovering - several years later - that your film was not properly fixed because you used bad fixer. But it may cause some to throw away unopened 2-year-old fixer which would have probably worked just fine. You will have to decide for yourself which of those two scenarios scares you the most.

From a practical viewpoint, if the fixer smells normal (does not smell like sulfur), looks normal (no precipitate or cloudiness) and passes the fixer clearing test, then it is quite likely ok to use. Of course, it takes some experience to learn what "normal" means, so the manufacturer's recommendations are a good place for beginners to start.

Here is a link to a procedure provided by Matt King for doing a "film fixer clip test" also known as the "fixer clearing test" <FILM FIXER CLIP TEST>

I like Matt King's clearing test procedure better than the one below, but Troop and Anchell provide some additional advice which I underlined:
From "The Film Developing Cookbook" by Bill Troop and Steve Anchell:
"Ideally, fixer clearing time should be tested before each use. From a practical standpoint, testing every third time should be adequate. Keep in mind that clearing times are different for every fillm. So if you are checking clearing time throughout the life of a batch of fixer, make sure
you use the same kind of film each time to do the checking. You want to know what clearing time is for Film A when the fixer is absolutely fresh, and you want to know when clearing time for Film A doubles.

Determining clearing time: With the lights on, place 1-2 inches of 120 film or the 35mm leader in fresh fixer. With gentle agitation observe how long it takes the lm to become completely transparent, or clear. This is the clearing time. Multiply the clearing time by two (conventional advice) or three (our advice) for your total fixing time.

As the fixer is used the clearing time will increase. Test whenever convenient. When the clearing time doubles from the fresh test, discard the fixer. It is best practice to use fixer for no more than 20 8x10 square inches of film per liter."

Thank you! This is very useful information. I appreciate it.

lukajaku · Nov 28, 2023

MattKing said:
Yes - but they are heavier, and more fragile than heavy plastic.
If you are going to use glass, re-fillable beer "growlers" work well:'

View attachment 355000

I think I should give a try. Do you use marbles to fill chemistry to the top?

Thanks, Matt.

lukajaku · Nov 28, 2023

Romanko said:
Yes. Wide-mouth amber glass lab bottles. I use 1L volume for working solutions (developer and fixer) and 250ml for storing HC-110 concentrate.

Thank you for sharing.

Do you transfer HC-110 concentrate to the glass lab bottle on the first day after purchasing HC-110 or you don’t rush?

MattKing · Nov 28, 2023

lukajaku said:
I think I should give a try. Do you use marbles to fill chemistry to the top?

Thanks, Matt.

I don't use marbles.
For solutions that are used up, I transfer remaining volumes to smaller containers.
I've also begun using collapsible "wine bags", which seems to be working very well.

Romanko · Nov 28, 2023

lukajaku said:
Do you use marbles to fill chemistry to the top?

I use butane-propane gas from a can for refilling gas lighters. It is more practical than marbles.

lukajaku said:
Do you transfer HC-110 concentrate to the glass lab bottle on the first day after purchasing HC-110 or you don’t rush?

I decant the concentrate into 250 ml bottles for convenience soon after purchasing. There is no rush to do this. My last bottle of HC-110 lasted more than a year. I stored it under the laundry sink in the original plastic bottle (not under gas). The developer started to oxidize eventually. It changed the colour from golden to almost amber. I did not notice any drop in activity, though.

Sirius Glass · Nov 28, 2023

MattKing said:
One caution - those collapsible “accordion” bottles look like they would be a good idea but they really are not. They are extremely difficult to completely clean, and they often leak air.
Outside of that, you should be happy if you follow Don’s suggestions.
And by the way - have fun!

I agree, I have tired and even exchanged accordion bottles at FreeStyle but in the end they leak. I strongly recommend StopLossBags from StopLossBags.com and the funnel they sell. The funnel is needed to assure that the chemical gets into the bags. These bags allow one to force out all the air and keep air from seeping in. I have used these bags for over five years for storing XTOL stock developer and replenished XTOL and not had a problem with any bag.

Romanko · Nov 28, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I strongly recommend StopLossBags

Thank you, Sirius, for the tip. They are available in Down Under from a local reseller. I should give them a go.

lukajaku · Dec 3, 2023

MattKing said:
Yes - but they are heavier, and more fragile than heavy plastic.
If you are going to use glass, re-fillable beer "growlers" work well:'

View attachment 355000

I was looking for glass bottles in my country shops and I found amber glass bottles without handhold or simple white/transparent glass bottles with handhold. The only option of darker glass bottle with handhold I found is dark green glass bottle with wine bottle type cork (please check the picture). I also found reagent amber glass bottles which theoretically should be working well for storing light-sensitive chemistry but they are more expensive.

1. Is it true that simple amber glass bottles or any other color glass bottles works just fine for storing chemistry if it is in complete dark most of the time?
2. What do you think about wine bottle type cork? Do metal or plastic caps can tighten bottle more?

lukajaku · Dec 3, 2023

Romanko said:
I use butane-propane gas from a can for refilling gas lighters. It is more practical than marbles.

I decant the concentrate into 250 ml bottles for convenience soon after purchasing. There is no rush to do this. My last bottle of HC-110 lasted more than a year. I stored it under the laundry sink in the original plastic bottle (not under gas). The developer started to oxidize eventually. It changed the colour from golden to almost amber. I did not notice any drop in activity, though.

Thank you for replying. I also want to ask about butane-propane gas. What do you do in situation when there is low liquid level in the bottle? For example, lets say inside 250 ml glass bottle there is only 130 ml developer left and you don't have another smaller capacity bottle to store. Can propane gas fill the bottle to the top in that kind of situation and be an alternative for marbles?

darkroommike · Dec 3, 2023

lukajaku said:
I think I should give a try. Do you use marbles to fill chemistry to the top?

Thanks, Matt.

I know that MattKing has already replied to this but be wary using glass marbles in photo solutions. Not all glass is chemically inert in high alkaline solutions and can pit. Glass marbles can also chip. If I were to bottle a gallon (3.8liters) of stock solution, I would divide it into four 1 liter bottles. Filling the first three almost all the way, and work out of the last, slightly under filled bottle first. If your stock solution has a four month shelf life in a partially filled bottle you have four months to use up the first bottle. If you can't use it up by then, you are not spending enough time in the darkroom. Manufacturers recommend a shelf life of 6 months for full bottles but i think that is usually a pretty conservative recommendation. I have a full clear glass bottle of Dektol, with a piece of the good plastic wrap over the mouth, that is over ten years old and still hasn't turned brown. I don't know if it is still good, don't care, it's a conversation starter and will never be opened.

I also do not use wide mouth brown jars for liquids, I prefer "Boston" rounds with narrow mouths, mostly because I am a klutz and can't pour neatly out of wide mouth jars. In the old days, darkroom gurus with monthly columns in photo magazines used mostly whiskey bottles but I can't empty my whiskey fast enough to provide a constant supply of glassware for my darkroom "brews".

lukajaku · Dec 3, 2023

darkroommike said:
I know that MattKing has already replied to this but be wary using glass marbles in photo solutions. Not all glass is chemically inert in high alkaline solutions and can pit. Glass marbles can also chip. If I were to bottle a gallon (3.8liters) of stock solution, I would divide it into four 1 liter bottles. Filling the first three almost all the way, and work out of the last, slightly under filled bottle first. If your stock solution has a four month shelf life in a partially filled bottle you have four months to use up the first bottle. If you can't use it up by then, you are not spending enough time in the darkroom. Manufacturers recommend a shelf life of 6 months for full bottles but i think that is usually a pretty conservative recommendation. I have a full clear glass bottle of Dektol, with a piece of the good plastic wrap over the mouth, that is over ten years old and still hasn't turned brown. I don't know if it is still good, don't care, it's a conversation starter and will never be opened.

I also do not use wide mouth brown jars for liquids, I prefer "Boston" rounds with narrow mouths, mostly because I am a klutz and can't pour neatly out of wide mouth jars. In the old days, darkroom gurus with monthly columns in photo magazines used mostly whiskey bottles but I can't empty my whiskey fast enough to provide a constant supply of glassware for my darkroom "brews".

Thank you for this detailed explanation!

Sirius Glass · Dec 3, 2023

darkroommike said:
I know that MattKing has already replied to this but be wary using glass marbles in photo solutions. Not all glass is chemically inert in high alkaline solutions and can pit. Glass marbles can also chip. If I were to bottle a gallon (3.8liters) of stock solution, I would divide it into four 1 liter bottles. Filling the first three almost all the way, and work out of the last, slightly under filled bottle first. If your stock solution has a four month shelf life in a partially filled bottle you have four months to use up the first bottle. If you can't use it up by then, you are not spending enough time in the darkroom. Manufacturers recommend a shelf life of 6 months for full bottles but i think that is usually a pretty conservative recommendation. I have a full clear glass bottle of Dektol, with a piece of the good plastic wrap over the mouth, that is over ten years old and still hasn't turned brown. I don't know if it is still good, don't care, it's a conversation starter and will never be opened.

I also do not use wide mouth brown jars for liquids, I prefer "Boston" rounds with narrow mouths, mostly because I am a klutz and can't pour neatly out of wide mouth jars. In the old days, darkroom gurus with monthly columns in photo magazines used mostly whiskey bottles but I can't empty my whiskey fast enough to provide a constant supply of glassware for my darkroom "brews".

I tried the glass marbles and yes they took up the empty space. However as the volume of chemical decreased the weight of the chemical, bottle and marbles increased to the point that handling the bottle became difficult. That was when I switched to the StopLossBags™ I mentioned and strongly recommended in post #14.

mshchem · Dec 3, 2023

darkroommike said:
I know that MattKing has already replied to this but be wary using glass marbles in photo solutions. Not all glass is chemically inert in high alkaline solutions and can pit. Glass marbles can also chip. If I were to bottle a gallon (3.8liters) of stock solution, I would divide it into four 1 liter bottles. Filling the first three almost all the way, and work out of the last, slightly under filled bottle first. If your stock solution has a four month shelf life in a partially filled bottle you have four months to use up the first bottle. If you can't use it up by then, you are not spending enough time in the darkroom. Manufacturers recommend a shelf life of 6 months for full bottles but i think that is usually a pretty conservative recommendation. I have a full clear glass bottle of Dektol, with a piece of the good plastic wrap over the mouth, that is over ten years old and still hasn't turned brown. I don't know if it is still good, don't care, it's a conversation starter and will never be opened.

I also do not use wide mouth brown jars for liquids, I prefer "Boston" rounds with narrow mouths, mostly because I am a klutz and can't pour neatly out of wide mouth jars. In the old days, darkroom gurus with monthly columns in photo magazines used mostly whiskey bottles but I can't empty my whiskey fast enough to provide a constant supply of glassware for my darkroom "brews".

Perfect answer

Romanko · Dec 3, 2023

lukajaku said:
I also found reagent amber glass bottles which theoretically should be working well for storing light-sensitive chemistry but they are more expensive.

These are the ones I use. I got some from a university lab. Their chemistry comes in amber glass bottles and they throw them away after its used up. I also bought a pack of 12 bottles from a specialist lab equipment supplier. They are expensive but last a long time. You should have no problems finding them online.

lukajaku said:
What do you do in situation when there is low liquid level in the bottle?

The gas is heavier than air. You need just a little to form a protective layer over your chemicals.

darkroommike · Dec 6, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I tried the glass marbles and yes they took up the empty space. However as the volume of chemical decreased the weight of the chemical, bottle and marbles increased to the point that handling the bottle became difficult. That was when I switched to the StopLossBags™ I mentioned and strongly recommended in post #14.

So you're saying that your bottle + marbles was some serious glass? I'll show myself the door.

Sirius Glass · Dec 6, 2023

darkroommike said:
So you're saying that your bottle + marbles was some serious glass? I'll show myself the door.

Take a bow. << more applause >>

Requesting for details on opening, storing, using chemistry

lukajaku

Attachments

Don_ih

lukajaku

MattKing

Moderator

lukajaku

runswithsizzers

MattKing

Moderator

Romanko

lukajaku

lukajaku

lukajaku

MattKing

Moderator

Romanko

Sirius Glass

Romanko

lukajaku

Attachments

lukajaku

darkroommike

lukajaku

Sirius Glass

mshchem

Romanko

darkroommike

Sirius Glass

Requesting for details on opening, storing, using chemistry

Attachments

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Attachments

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency