Reply From HARMAN technology Limited Re True IR Film.

Simon R Galley · Dec 12, 2012

Dear All,

As promised I have the feedback from HARMAN regarding requests to produce a true infra red camera film.

The internal R&D review and commercial reviews have been completed and a decision has been reached.

In relation to R&D, we have previously to 2000 produced a number of emulsion models in relation to a true IR film, whilst significant development work would be required to update those models in relation to current raw material availability since originally worked on, it would be possible to produce a film should a R&D programme be progressed.

The main negative issue is in relation to our own automated emulsion preparation systems that aid 100% batch to batch consistency, this depends on a 'minimum' make that can be coated and / or stored dependant on coated volumes. With an IR film this process control system could not be used as immediate coating is required for an IR emulsion to control levels of base fog which are critical.

Therefore coated volumes produced would be uneconomical against the investment required, in relation to the size of the worldwide market, even allowing for our ability to coat 'small' volumes.

Secondary, to have any hope of reaching a commercially viable coated volume it would also mean that the EXTENDED Red film ILFORD SFX would need to be withdrawn if a true IR film was to be embarked upon. This would go against our stated market position where NO ILFORD Photo product in relation to our monochrome ranges will be withdrawn. ILFORD SFX has a very loyal following, and has unique attributes in relation to architectural photography that cannot be replicated with a full IR film.

The management of HARMAN technology Limited have therefore decided NOT to progress with a true IR film at this time. Our extended red film SFX film in 35mm and 120 roll film will obviously remain in full manufacture and availability.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology LImited :

MartinP · Dec 12, 2012

Thank you for the work, and the careful consideration given to the idea, by all involved at Ilford.

Maybe there might be an opportunity here to spread the word about SFX, perhaps even the multi-packs with filters as promotions again?

sly · Dec 12, 2012

Not unexpected, but sad to hear

Thank you Simon, for keeping us informed. Your dedication to customer relations and keeping the lines of communication open are impressive. I remain a huge Ilford fan, not just because the products are so consistently good, but because of you

Newt_on_Swings · Dec 12, 2012

=[ oh well, maybe later on in the future then. Its funny though that long expired HIE though is still being snapped up on ebay for ~$30 a roll.

iulian · Dec 12, 2012

Well, that's sad
Maybe some other manufacturer will look into it since you clearly stated Ilford won't do it.

cmo · Dec 12, 2012

Does someone know a source for some Efke 820 Aura/35mm? I have a to finish a projct in spring, and I am running out of ammunition... I just need 10 rolls.

And today my last hope died.

andrew.roos · Dec 12, 2012

Thanks for considering the request and reporting back in detail on the reasons for your decision. I can't think of another major manufacturer that would take the trouble to do this.

Michael W · Dec 12, 2012

Simon R Galley said:
ILFORD SFX has a very loyal following, and has unique attributes in relation to architectural photography that cannot be replicated with a full IR film.

Hi Simon, I have to admit that I've never tried SFX - I must give it a go over summer here in Sydney. Can you explain what you mean by its characteristics in regards to architectural photography, as that is one subject I will try it with.

cmo · Dec 12, 2012

My very last hope:

Wouldit be possible to make an SFX without antihalation layer? That would be a good substitute for Efke's "Aura", adding the benefit of Ilford quality control.

Many of us miss this effect:

View attachment 61119

AgX · Dec 12, 2012

Simon R Galley said:
The main negative issue is in relation to our own automated emulsion preparation systems that aid 100% batch to batch consistency, this depends on a 'minimum' make that can be coated and / or stored dependant on coated volumes.

Is that consistency really needed?
Could not each batch offered as "special run", without spoiling the quality/consistency Ilford/Harman have built up? Such a film would only be bought be a special clientele, which themselves (due to the matter of IR lighting/reflectance) would likely not produce consistent results even by using a film stock with consistent characteristics.

thegman · Dec 12, 2012

How about the Rollei stuff:

http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/rollei-infrared-film-166-c.asp

I've used it, and liked it.

pentaxuser · Dec 12, 2012

Thanks for the explanation, Simon. What you have said seems reasonable to me.

pentaxuser

anikin · Dec 12, 2012

Thank you Simon for taking this request seriously and doing the research! The result is disappointing but not unexpected. I really appreciate your looking into it. I guess time came to learn emulsion coating...

Steve Smith · Dec 12, 2012

AgX said:
Is that consistency really needed?
Could not each batch offered as "special run", without spoiling the quality/consistency Ilford/Harman have built up?

The market for this is likely to be small and as such, it might be possible to run it on their pilot run machine rather than the main coating machine.

However, it's their decision and it's good that they, and especially Simon, keep us informed. The reasons are very valid and similar to the reasons given a few years ago regarding the possibility of a Delta 25 film.

Steve.

Jeff Kubach · Dec 12, 2012

I understand, but still sad. I love IR film.

Jeff

Simon R Galley · Dec 12, 2012

Dear All,

A reply to a couple of points raised.

Using material from a PILOT coater, whilst volume is indeed small, it is purely preparation for coating on the production machine M14, since it is a very narrow coating you cannot then convert the film to to 35mm.

Consistency : I understand your point, the problem is that we manufacture to ISO 9001, whilst you could theoretically agree a 'new' process.... moving to a lab made emulsion ( micro production ) is not an option with an IR film.

Whilst 'post' coating we can ( and do ) do lots of very flexible processes, such as for custom manufacture for the annual ULF film run, coating of the original parent rolls is an 'industrial' size process and very difficult to 'adjust' either economically or without affecting quality regimes and waste levels.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

ME Super · Dec 12, 2012

Thank you Simon for getting back to us. Not what I wanted to hear, but do appreciate the time you and others at Harman/Ilford took to research this for its viability. It speaks volumes that you listen to your customers and at least consider their input, unlike many (I hesitate to say most) businesses in general today.

Oh and I shot my first roll of FP5+ last month. Good stuff - I like it better than the XP2 and Tri-X I've shot in the past. I'm primarily a color reversal shooter and never could get into B&W photography before but somehow this roll was different.

JBrunner · Dec 12, 2012

Thank you Simon.

Andre Noble · Dec 12, 2012

People have stockpiled Efke IR820 film and are running off this.
But Ilford should reconsider totally revamping their current IR film to a true IR film.
This would be a clear improvement to their SFX film. I never ever gave Ilford SFX serious consideration.

BUT, I'm sure Ilford knows the market, and whatever they need to do to stay alive is OK with me! Seriously.

Simonh82 · Dec 13, 2012

Thanks for feeding back to us Simon. A real shame but I am sure making sensible businesses decisions are why Ilford will be around for a long time.

coat953 · Dec 13, 2012

Interesting and totally understandable.... I personally really like SFX. I'd like it even more if I could get it in 5x4! Any possibility of that one day?

PKM-25 · Dec 14, 2012

Thanks Simon, Ilford is most certainly family to a lot of us and it is insight like this that shows why...

Even thought it is not as IR looking as say, Rollei IR400, I would also consider SFX 200 in 4x5 since the Rollei stuff is a real pain in the rear in that format due to it's paper thin base.

Paul Cunningham · Dec 17, 2012

I'm happy to just hear of SFX

Something for me to explore, at least.

Soeren · Dec 18, 2012

Sad news I'm sure i would have loved the Ilford HIE. Maybe kodak will sell the formulation etc cheap

Best regards

madgardener · Jan 31, 2013

Is Ilford SFX an infrared film? If I were to use SFX with infrared filters, will it give me infrared effects?

Reply From HARMAN technology Limited Re True IR Film.

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