Replenishing XTOL developer

dfoo · Mar 27, 2010

I've been developing with replenished XTOL for the past 6 months and have put about 150 rolls through it. I've noticed some weak thin negatives as of late and so I did a test today. I've found that the replenished XTOL is a full stop slower than fresh. I've been replenishing at a rate of 100ml per roll of 135. I'm going to throw out the stock, and I think I'll start using 1+2 one-shot again.

clayne · Mar 27, 2010

dfoo said:
I've been developing with replenished XTOL for the past 6 months and have put about 150 rolls through it. I've noticed some weak thin negatives as of late and so I did a test today. I've found that the replenished XTOL is a full stop slower than fresh. I've been replenishing at a rate of 100ml per roll of 135. I'm going to throw out the stock, and I think I'll start using 1+2 one-shot again.

Interesting. Ian can probably answer better to this as I don't do replenished XTOL myself, but do you regularly process rolls that are overexposed, pulled, or otherwise exposed to a lot of light? How's your management or air in the storage container?

Christiaan Phleger · Mar 28, 2010

You also may need to alter your times. I find once I shift to the replenished times its very stable, getting way (way) more than 150 rolls out of it. Since Kodak doesn't list replenished small tank numbers you have to figure out your own, but adding 15-20% is pretty close.

dfoo · Mar 28, 2010

clayne said:
Interesting. Ian can probably answer better to this as I don't do replenished XTOL myself, but do you regularly process rolls that are overexposed, pulled, or otherwise exposed to a lot of light? How's your management or air in the storage container?

The storage container is always filled right to the brim, so that cannot be the issue. I don't regularly process very exposed film.

jpberger · Mar 28, 2010

Ian Grant said:
Too many people are afraid of using replenished developers it's a shame. Even D76/ID-11 works best this way giving far superior results to one shot.

Ian

This has been an interesting thread- how does working with seasoned/replenished developer compare to working with dilute developer (I've been using 1:1) Is the underlying chemistry the same?- i.e less solvent effect, or is there something unique about the way seasoned developer works on film?

dfoo · Mar 28, 2010

After my experience I recommend against using XTOL replenished, unless you test the developer regularly against fresh using a known scene to ensure that the developer has not long its strength. To me it is just no longer worth it. I was replenishing at 100ml a roll, and I can use one-shot with 1+2 meaning that there is really no savings.

Thomas Bertilsson · Mar 29, 2010

If you feel like your process with replenished Xtol is drifting from the normal densities you established at the beginning of seasoning your developer, you will need to replenish more. You have to find an equilibrium of how much you need to replenish with each roll, or the process will fail. Seasoned and replenished Xtol should have the same shadow detail as stock. If not, the developer is becoming depleted and you need to replenish more.

The difference you see with replenished developer compared to dilute stock is sharper negs and slightly finer grain. I have also found the highlight tonalities to be more beautiful right at the edge of blocking up. There's a bit more sparkle than with standard stock developer.

It's up to you if you feel like the extra work with monitoring your densities in a discerning manner is worth it or not. But in my opinion, this is something you should be doing anyway.

- Thomas

Ian Grant · Mar 29, 2010

jpberger said:
This has been an interesting thread- how does working with seasoned/replenished developer compare to working with dilute developer (I've been using 1:1) Is the underlying chemistry the same?- i.e less solvent effect, or is there something unique about the way seasoned developer works on film?

Using a seasoned replenished developer is akin to about 1+2 in terms of the increased sharpness, while achieving improved fine grain and better tonality, so as Thomas says. Many older books go into these replenishment techniques in greater detail because that's how all professional labs used these developers at one time.

It's a rather more unique because of the build up of Iodide & Bromide etc in the working stock solution.

Ian

Zathras · Mar 29, 2010

dfoo said:
The storage container is always filled right to the brim, so that cannot be the issue. I don't regularly process very exposed film.

What are you using for a storage container?

OMU · Mar 29, 2010

Ian Grant said:
Too many people are afraid of using replenished developers it's a shame. Even D76/ID-11 works best this way giving far superior results to one shot.

Ian

Hi,
I have some ID-11 and want to try to replenisher it.
- Do I use the same amount of replenisher, 70 ml?
- I have some brown medical bottles that are 1 liter. Is it OK to use them, ore are they too small?

Thanks!

dfoo · Mar 29, 2010

Thomas Bertilsson said:
If you feel like your process with replenished Xtol is drifting from the normal densities you established at the beginning of seasoning your developer, you will need to replenish more. You have to find an equilibrium of how much you need to replenish with each roll, or the process will fail. Seasoned and replenished Xtol should have the same shadow detail as stock. If not, the developer is becoming depleted and you need to replenish more.
...

I replenished at 100ml per roll consistently. When I started doing this someone told me that due to hydrobromic acid build up the developer would about 1 stop in speed... he was definitely right in that my developer lost strength; about 1 stop!

dfoo · Mar 29, 2010

OMU said:
Hi,
I have some ID-11 and want to try to replenisher it.
- Do I use the same amount of replenisher, 70 ml?
- I have some brown medical bottles that are 1 liter. Is it OK to use them, ore are they too small?

Thanks!

You don't replenish D76 with D76. You use D76-R.

dfoo · Mar 29, 2010

Zathras said:
What are you using for a storage container?

I used a 5L plastic container.

Anon Ymous · Mar 29, 2010

dfoo, that's interesting, but how much have you increased the development time?

Maris · Mar 29, 2010

My 1 litre bottles of Xtol are still working consistently after 7 years and hundreds of films. All they get is a replenishment of 90ml of fresh Xtol for each film and an occasional trip through a coffee filter to take out the white particles and other debris.

After the first week developer activity settled to 80% of fresh Xtol and I just give 25% more development time than the Kodak J-104 Technical Data Sheet suggests. Non-Kodak films are tested individually and the I run an occasional exposure/density/contrast film strip just to confirm proper activity.

The Xtol is kept in full (no air space) plastic bottles under my darkroom sink with all the other chemicals.

GraemeMitchell · Mar 29, 2010

Maris, out of curiosity, which times on the tech sheet are you increasing %25 over? Small tank times?

Christiaan Phleger · Mar 29, 2010

80% and +25% is pretty close to my numbers, using 1 gallon jug and hundreds of rolls, very very extremely consistent. If you use the same stock 1:0 numbers it will be 1 stop under. Its not the developer, its your numbers. But, do what you like. Replenished to me is way to go, but I probably do way more fill than Dfoo does.

dfoo · Mar 29, 2010

Anon Ymous said:
dfoo, that's interesting, but how much have you increased the development time?

I didn't increase development time. I started off at 6.30s for my film, and that is where I ended It was very consistent for at least the first 75 rolls. At some point during the next 75 rolls it dropped by a stop (for the same development time) versus fresh XTOL.

dfoo · Mar 29, 2010

RidingWaves said:
... Replenished to me is way to go, but I probably do way more fill than Dfoo does.

What do you mean fill? I developed about 150 rolls in 6 months, replenishing 100 ml per roll into my initial 5L fresh XTOL stock.

Zathras · Mar 29, 2010

dfoo said:
I used a 5L plastic container.

Hmmmm. I wonder if oxygen is passing through the plastic and weakening the developer. I keep my developers in glass bottles, and have not had any oxidation problems so far. Don't know if this is your problem or not, but I thought I'd bring it up as something to consider.

Thomas Bertilsson · Mar 29, 2010

Well, I get full speed with my replenished batch, which has probably processed about 200 rolls of film since I started it. I shoot all film at box speed under normal contrast. Even Foma 400 film, which I would shoot at EI 160 to 200 with almost any other developer. Full shadow detail.
TMY-2 I can shoot at EI 800 without losing much.

Maybe there's something wrong with your batch? Is it possible that it got contaminated? If 100ml per roll wasn't enough, perhaps you should replenish even more?

I don't think you can instantly determine that Xtol will lose speed once you have run a lot of film through it. You should get full shadow detail. I used to work in a commercial lab where they kept the same batch of seasoned Xtol alive for almost ten years and just kept replenishing it. Like so many other labs.

dfoo said:
I replenished at 100ml per roll consistently. When I started doing this someone told me that due to hydrobromic acid build up the developer would about 1 stop in speed... he was definitely right in that my developer lost strength; about 1 stop!

Anon Ymous · Mar 30, 2010

dfoo said:
I didn't increase development time. I started off at 6.30s for my film, and that is where I ended It was very consistent for at least the first 75 rolls. At some point during the next 75 rolls it dropped by a stop (for the same development time) versus fresh XTOL.

So, it seems you underdevelop, in which case loss of speed is normal. If we take into account what Maris and Ridingwaves say, you develop for 80% of what the normal development time should have been now. Underdevelopment by 20% will require about 1 stop more exposure. If you increase development time by 25%, you'll get the same speed as when using fresh Xtol. You used a relatively large working solution (5l) and replenished ~43% more than the "normal" recommendation, which delayed the need to increase development time. Try developing for 8'15'' and see what happens.

Ian Grant · Mar 30, 2010

Zathras said:
Hmmmm. I wonder if oxygen is passing through the plastic and weakening the developer. I keep my developers in glass bottles, and have not had any oxidation problems so far. Don't know if this is your problem or not, but I thought I'd bring it up as something to consider.

Some plastics breathe, I stored Pyrocat HD in some small bottles and it had a poor shelf life but the same batch on an old Rodinal bottle kept well over a year.

I store Xtol in 2.5 litre high density plastic bottles that originally contained concentrated Nitric acid, and it keeps well over a year, longer when constantly replenished.

So check your bottles they can make a huge difference.

Ian

Christiaan Phleger · Mar 30, 2010

Yeah, its looking more like a small issue with the bottles to me. If there was a small amount of oxidation cause by the bottle, and after 1/2 the rolls in 3 months say the level of oxidation increased 2% each week well, yeah, you'll get to a full stop under pretty quick. I use a glass gallon jug with rubber stopper, and after about 30-40 rolls I switch from my starting numbers to an intermediate, lets say adding 10%, then after say another 30 rolls switch to my main numbers (say another 10% and that is that for as long as I care to keep it going. 150 rolls over 6 months is not bad, you are certainly a good and suitable canidate for the replenishment scheme, so I'd work at figuring this out. If this is your first try at doing Xtol replenished don't give up, you've certainly learned a lot so far. I remember starting down this path, and I pretty much thought I'd change the whole batch at 6 month just to be safe, and after a while I got to a year or more pretty easily.

polyglot · Jan 17, 2011

thread resurrection!

I currently use D-76 and occasional Rodinal but I'm pondering doing xtol, maybe with replenishment. I've got a couple of questions:
- I'm in Adelaide, where we have xtol-killing water. Is "spring water" from a 10L bag-in-box safe to make up this developer? Alternatively, does anyone know specific numbers at which point dissolved minerals (and which?) are problematic? The boxes of water usually state typical dissolved mineral content.
- Does anyone have example scans showing the difference between seasoned replenished xtol and diluted xtol? Better still if you have comparisons with D-76. Flowery words of its brilliance are all well and good but I want to see!

Replenishing XTOL developer

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