Replenish Xtol with Eco Pro LegacyPro?

Bormental · Jul 26, 2020

I've been looking at this Eco Pro developer for a while. The reviews and past comments on photrio say that "for all intents and purposes it is Xtol".

I have a 1.8L working bottle of Xtol-R, would you replenish it with Eco Pro? Or have you?
Thank you.

P.S. Yes I know that Xtol is available but I'm trying to get off Kodak chems.

MattKing · Jul 26, 2020

Compare the MSDS for each of them.
If there are differences, my answer would definitely be "no".
Even if there are no differences, I still wouldn't recommend it.
Unless of course you want to apply a lot of time, film and developer to the task of determining what the appropriate replenishment rate would be, and to determine whether you need to add additional components (besides the developer) in order to maintain a steady state.

Bormental · Jul 26, 2020

Xtol MSDS has more ingredients, so I'll pass for now.

Donald Qualls · Jul 27, 2020

If you're trying to get off Kodak's hook, you might try (in parallel to your running Xtol-R) verifying whether Mytol can replenish itself. It's easy to mix (four or five ingredients -- phenidone, sodium ascorbate, sodium sulfite, borax, and maybe some potassium bromide, I don't recall for certain), inexpensive, and independent of Kodak's reliability or lack thereof. Everything I've seen suggests it's a 1:1 replacement for Xtol, though I haven't found reliable reports of replenishment (or self-replenishment) for it. I plan to try it when I near the end of my own Xtol stock for replenishment -- if Mytol replenishes itself, I don't see any good reason to keep buying Xtol.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jul 28, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
if Mytol replenishes itself, I don't see any good reason to keep buying Xtol.

Even if Mytol replenishment works fine, it might not keep well for long. Some chelating agent that works well with ascorbic acid may need to be added.

Donald Qualls · Jul 28, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Even if Mytol replenishment works fine, it might not keep well for long. Some chelating agent that works well with ascorbic acid may need to be added.

I mix my chemicals with high purity Reverse Osmosis Deionized water -- shouldn't be anything in the water to need chelating. But as you say, we'll see. Looks like I need to get some sodium metabisulfite -- forgot that was in there, and I don't think I have any on hand.

Mr Bill · Jul 28, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
I mix my chemicals with high purity Reverse Osmosis Deionized water -- shouldn't be anything in the water to need chelating.

Hi, I don't know how much gets used, but you may be bringing in small amounts of iron with the sodium sulfite. As I recall the photograde specifically has an iron limit, which suggests that it is potentially a problem. Anyway, if the developer doesn't last this might be something to look into.

I may have an old ANSI photograde standard laying around if you want more info.

Donald Qualls · Jul 28, 2020

Mr Bill said:
Hi, I don't know how much gets used, but you may be bringing in small amounts of iron with the sodium sulfite. As I recall the photograde specifically has an iron limit, which suggests that it is potentially a problem. Anyway, if the developer doesn't last this might be something to look into.

I may have an old ANSI photograde standard laying around if you want more info.

Surely a potential concern. I bought my current batch of sulfite from an Amazon seller, and it's either swimming pool or technical grade, sold as 99.7% purity. I might be able to come up with a test for presence of iron in the stuff, though. Iron is most certainly an issue with ascorbate, however -- it's behind a known reaction that "kills" the ascorbate (I don't recall the name of the reaction, however). An iron scavenger might not come amiss here...

Mr Bill · Jul 28, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
I might be able to come up with a test for presence of iron in the stuff, though. Iron is most certainly an issue with ascorbate, however --

The ANSI standard almost certainly will have an abbreviated screening procedure, probably compared vs an iron reference standard you would mix up, as a go/no-go test against the spec. One of the old standard wet lab methodologies used a reagent called 1,10 phenanthroline, from the G. Frederick Smith Co. (funny how things like this can stay stuck in one's memory) that was read in a spectrophotmeter. But it could probably be used visually vs a reference standard. The basic method is almost certainly in Kodak's H24 manual, online.

But it might be easier to just do a small scale practical test with actual developer; I'm guessing that no one has published useful limits for am Xtol-style developer, so even if you get a number it may have little meaning. I don't know much about these developers, but if they tolerate a lot of sulfite you might be able to load up two or three times the standard amount in order to aggravate a possible iron problem. Or... just try running the system and see what happens.

You would think that people in the "real world" would have already have experience to share; maybe a lack of warnings just means it's not a problem. I dunno.

Donald Qualls · Jul 28, 2020

Mr Bill said:
You would think that people in the "real world" would have already have experience to share; maybe a lack of warnings just means it's not a problem. I dunno.

I've only found one reference anywhere i've searched of someone running replenishment with Mytol, and that was someone operating a minilab with it and asking about the pH drifting. Nothing really useful in the answers, either.

Buy Xtol isn't the big problem -- $10 a bag for 5L of replenisher is cheapish -- but the concern is that Kodak will quit selling it, or make a big change (like they recently did with HC-110), and I have to start over finding a good general purpose developer (other than D-76). Starting to look like I'm on my own for longevity testing and finding the correct replenishment rate, or I'll wind up using Mytol one-shot or compensated for exhaustion.

mshchem · Jul 28, 2020

You could try it. You would be in uncharted territory, but if you liked the results it wouldn't matter. Is this just a emergency stop gap measure? I wouldn't do it. If you want to switch I would start with a new working tank,of Ecopro.

removedacct1 · Jul 28, 2020

If your goal is to get away from using Kodak chemistry, then just use up your Xtol as one-shot developer and transition to your chosen alternative, and don't waste your time (and potentially money) figuring out if you can replenish developer A with developer B.If you want to stop using Xtol, then get rid of the remaining Xtol asap and move on.

mshchem · Jul 28, 2020

Bormental said:
S. Yes I know that Xtol is available but I'm trying to get off Kodak chems.

I've had a "Yellow and Red" monkey on my back for 50 years . I'm not going to give it up until they pry it from my fingers. I really miss the company that EK once was. I bought quite a stockpile, but the new XTOL works fine, I see no difference. I've used Ilford Bromophen for the last 25 years, I hope that sticks around too.

I can understand with all the craziness surrounding Alaris a desire to adopt a more stable supplier..

XTOL-R is a great system, I sure see what you like.

wyofilm · Jul 28, 2020

Bormental said:
P.S. Yes I know that Xtol is available but I'm trying to get off Kodak chems.

Who has xtol available? Thanks.

wyofilm · Jul 28, 2020

paulbarden said:
If your goal is to get away from using Kodak chemistry, then just use up your Xtol as one-shot developer and transition to your chosen alternative, and don't waste your time (and potentially money) figuring out if you can replenish developer A with developer B.If you want to stop using Xtol, then get rid of the remaining Xtol asap and move on.

Sounds like pretty good advice.

removedacct1 · Jul 29, 2020

wyofilm said:
Who has xtol available? Thanks.

I've checked all of my regular known sources, including Blue Moon (who almost always has some in stock) and none of them have any. They all list it as "back-ordered" or "due in early September". This is why I am now in the habit of keeping at least 2 or 3 packages of it at all times.

Donald Qualls · Jul 29, 2020

And why I'll be experimenting before year end with replenishing Mytol.

wyofilm · Jul 29, 2020

paulbarden said:
I've checked all of my regular known sources, including Blue Moon (who almost always has some in stock) and none of them have any. They all list it as "back-ordered" or "due in early September". This is why I am now in the habit of keeping at least 2 or 3 packages of it at all times.

Thanks! I was looking and didn't find a seller with any available. I was hoping there was a super-secret seller out there. Time to storm MSCHEM's chemical bunker. Should be easy to find what with his license plate and all.

Michael Teresko · Jul 29, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
And why I'll be experimenting before year end with replenishing Mytol.

I just started a batch of replenished mytol. It's only a week and a half old and about 5 rolls in, but so far so good. I've got the working solution in a 1.8l glass jug that's filled to the neck and topped off with argon gas. Stock solution is decanted into 250ml glass bottles. I've been using mytol one shot for a year or so, usually mixing up a liter at a time using distilled water and storing in glass w/ argon, and I've never had a problem with the stock solution going bad, even if the bottle is half empty for a month or more. The first three rolls I didn't replenish, and adjusted the developing time by about 10% for the second roll, and again for the third roll. The fourth and fifth rolls were 24x, so I've replenished with 50ml each time.

removedacct1 · Jul 29, 2020

wyofilm said:
Thanks! I was looking and didn't find a seller with any available.

In my experience, when all the other sellers are out of stock, there's a good chance Blue Moon still has it in stock, but not this time. So I usually look to Blue Moon first.

Bormental · Jul 29, 2020

wyofilm said:
Who has xtol available? Thanks.

http://www.glasskeyphoto.com/shopchemistry/xtol

Donald Qualls · Jul 29, 2020

Michael Teresko said:
I just started a batch of replenished mytol. It's only a week and a half old and about 5 rolls in, but so far so good.

Five rolls is too early to see how well it work over time, but it's a start. I'd suggest starting a thread specific to your replenished Mytol porgress, so we can keep it all in one place -- else else write up a blog and link it from here so we can follow along. I've just started using Xtol, and if availability might be a problem over a long term, I'd rather use a developer I can mix myself -- but the best known replenished systems that can be mixed from published formulae, D-76/D-76R and D-23/DK-25R, don't really float my boat the way Xtol has done so far.

At the very least, please keep us posted here.

wyofilm · Jul 29, 2020

Bormental said:
http://www.glasskeyphoto.com/shopchemistry/xtol

Thanks! I had never heard of them before. There website comes up as un-secure (as in red bar through padlock). Since I'm fairly ignorant of such things, I'm always a bit leary of un-secure websites.

Donald Qualls · Jul 29, 2020

wyofilm said:
Thanks! I had never heard of them before. There website comes up as un-secure (as in red bar through padlock). Since I'm fairly ignorant of such things, I'm always a bit leary of un-secure websites.

I suppose you could order by calling them on the phone if the unsecured web page connection concerns you. Do they take PayPal? If so, you don't send any financials over the unsecured link; they redirect to PayPal's site for your login and PayPal already has your bank or card information, so you don't enter it.

Bormental · Jul 29, 2020

or just use `https://` version
https://www.glasskeyphoto.com/shopchemistry/xtol

it's a well-known local shop / lab in San Francisco, I used to buy everything from them when I lived there.

Replenish Xtol with Eco Pro LegacyPro?

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