Replenish Xtol with a clone (Fomadon Excel, Adox XT-3 ..)

npl · May 6, 2023

To make a long story short, I have a XTOL-R working solution but I'm out of stock Xtol to replenish it.
For several reasons I probably won't buy a new 5L package, but on the other hand I have one unopened package of fomadon Excel* left at home, and my local lab (which have been out of Xtol for months) ordered some Adox XT-3 and should have it available soon.

So I'm wondering if instead of discarding my XTOL-R I could use one of it's clone, either Foma's or Adox's, to replenish it.

I doubt someone tried that already, but you never know.. so I guess the question is how much the clones are chemically similar, and based on that if it's either a doable experiment or a completely bad idea.

*side note about fomadon excel as there's not much about it on photography forums: it's great. I'm on the 11th reuse of the stock solution without problem, althought I followed Xtol time compensation chart (+15% after the 5th roll) and found the time increase unnecessary until the 7th roll or so. Kodak recommend to add an other 15% after the 10th roll, but film #11 was fine with normal time + 15%.

John Wiegerink · May 6, 2023

I switched to Adox XT-3 for my replenish system and treat it as I did Xtol-R. All seems just fine so far. I don't see why you couldn't use something like Adox XT-3 to replenish Xtol, but I have never tried it myself.

Andrew O'Neill · May 6, 2023

Whatever you decide to replenish with, it'll eventually become Whatever-R. I'll probably do the same if Xtol disappears...

npl · May 8, 2023

John Wiegerink said:
I switched to Adox XT-3 for my replenish system and treat it as I did Xtol-R. All seems just fine so far. I don't see why you couldn't use something like Adox XT-3 to replenish Xtol, but I have never tried it myself.

Andrew O'Neill said:
Whatever you decide to replenish with, it'll eventually become Whatever-R. I'll probably do the same if Xtol disappears...

Think I'll try with Adox XT-3 then, thanks.

Whatever-R I like that, other possible candidates for the label are "Frankeinstein's Xtol" , "Ascorbic acid Pot-Pourri" , "not really XTOL anymore", or a boring but accurate "Xtol / XT-3 (r)"

Andrew O'Neill · May 8, 2023

Moose22 · May 8, 2023

Let us know how it comes out.

I'm replenishing with the EcoPro Legacy Pro developer. Can't tell the difference from brand name x-tol and I've about used up the first 5L of this stuff. I have more to mix this week to continue replenishing with it. It's working well.

lantau · May 9, 2023

I wouldn't use Adox XT-3 with an existing xtol solution. They are using a different buffer system and you can't predict what's going to happen as you slowly dilute the one with the other. I'd expect your pH not to be stable.

XT-3 is not a clone, but a functional replacement. The developer system is the same, I'm assuming, but the auxiliary chemistry is different.

The other products may be perfect clones, but who knows. Based on what replenishment technically does you'd need the exact same xtol to make it work properly.

That being said, for technical and psychological reasons it might be difficult to notice the difference even if it is not that minor. Do you think you would notice, right away at least, if someone secretly replaced your xtol-r with D76?

Donald Qualls · May 9, 2023

I've read at least one post saying they've switched from Xtol to EcoPro without interrupting replenishment, but haven't seen any long-term followup.

Frank53 · May 9, 2023

I’ve switched from kodak xtol to adox xt-3 using my old xtol solution.
After 6 films no problems.
We’ll see how it develops

npl · May 13, 2023

lantau said:
I wouldn't use Adox XT-3 with an existing xtol solution. They are using a different buffer system and you can't predict what's going to happen as you slowly dilute the one with the other. I'd expect your pH not to be stable.

XT-3 is not a clone, but a functional replacement. The developer system is the same, I'm assuming, but the auxiliary chemistry is different.

The other products may be perfect clones, but who knows. Based on what replenishment technically does you'd need the exact same xtol to make it work properly.

That being said, for technical and psychological reasons it might be difficult to notice the difference even if it is not that minor. Do you think you would notice, right away at least, if someone secretly replaced your xtol-r with D76?

OK. I still have some PH strips so I'll test that from time to time. I shoot medium speed 35mm film, don't print large, and my enlarger lens is not the sharpest in the world, so I might not notice some differences. As long as I get close to box speed, low grain and good tonality for a low cost ...

Frank53 said:
I’ve switched from kodak xtol to adox xt-3 using my old xtol solution.
After 6 films no problems.
We’ll see how it develops

Good to know !

I went ahead an picked up a 1L pack of XT-3. It mixed easily at 21°c, and the powder did not flew everywhere, so that's good.
Because I haven't used my XTOL working solution for close to 9 months I started to replenish it with 100ml of XT-3, then developed a roll of Agfaphoto APX 100 using the 1:1 time as I usually did with XTOL-R. Turned out it wasn't even needed, the negative came out overdevelopped but completely usable. I'll stick to the 70ml rate and see how it goes.

Sirius Glass · May 13, 2023

npl said:
OK. I still have some PH strips so I'll test that from time to time. I shoot medium speed 35mm film, don't print large, and my enlarger lens is not the sharpest in the world, so I might not notice some differences. As long as I get close to box speed, low grain and good tonality for a low cost ...

Good to know !

I went ahead an picked up a 1L pack of XT-3. It mixed easily at 21°c, and the powder did not flew everywhere, so that's good.
Because I haven't used my XTOL working solution for close to 9 months I started to replenish it with 100ml of XT-3, then developed a roll of Agfaphoto APX 100 using the 1:1 time as I usually did with XTOL-R. Turned out it wasn't even needed, the negative came out overdevelopped but completely usable. I'll stick to the 70ml rate and see how it goes.

View attachment 338601

When I have not used my replenished XTOL I test it with a film leader to make sure it is viable before I develop film with it.

John Wiegerink · May 13, 2023

npl said:
OK. I still have some PH strips so I'll test that from time to time. I shoot medium speed 35mm film, don't print large, and my enlarger lens is not the sharpest in the world, so I might not notice some differences. As long as I get close to box speed, low grain and good tonality for a low cost ...

Good to know !

I went ahead an picked up a 1L pack of XT-3. It mixed easily at 21°c, and the powder did not flew everywhere, so that's good.
Because I haven't used my XTOL working solution for close to 9 months I started to replenish it with 100ml of XT-3, then developed a roll of Agfaphoto APX 100 using the 1:1 time as I usually did with XTOL-R. Turned out it wasn't even needed, the negative came out overdevelopped but completely usable. I'll stick to the 70ml rate and see how it goes.

View attachment 338601

Can't be overdeveloped by much since it seems to have detail in the sky. I think the shot came out pretty darn good. Also, your finding on replenishment is good to know.

Donald Qualls · May 16, 2023

John Wiegerink said:
your finding on replenishment is good to know.

Well, what we know at this point is that 100 ml of XT-3 won't kill however much Xtol it went into. Whether it's useful to cross-replenish will surely require a longer trial to establish. Given the relative costs of developer and film, I'd be more inclined to discard the old Xtol and start with fresh XT-3, if I were using that.

For EcoPro, it's likely you could do this; it's a direct clone.

John Wiegerink · May 16, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
Well, what we know at this point is that 100 ml of XT-3 won't kill however much Xtol it went into. Whether it's useful to cross-replenish will surely require a longer trial to establish. Given the relative costs of developer and film, I'd be more inclined to discard the old Xtol and start with fresh XT-3, if I were using that.

For EcoPro, it's likely you could do this; it's a direct clone.

Don,
I agree with you 100%. Why take a chance screwing up a brand new batch. I dumped all my Xtol and went with a whole new batch of XT-3. So far so good! I will say this, XT-3 is a breeze to mix.

Sirius Glass · May 16, 2023

John Wiegerink said:
Don,
I agree with you 100%. Why take a chance screwing up a brand new batch. I dumped all my Xtol and went with a whole new batch of XT-3. So far so good! I will say this, XT-3 is a breeze to mix.

I would have tested it first. I have found that XTOL and Replenished XTOL is properly stored [sealed] can last years untouched.

Moose22 · May 16, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
For EcoPro, it's likely you could do this; it's a direct clone.

I just went straight to Eco pro. No change from the last roll in xtol to the next few replenished with the eco pro, and I'm still replenishing 70ml.

npl · May 16, 2023

I'm at peace with the fact that it wasn't a wise idea

If I have a blank or significantly underdevelopped roll I'll let you know, and the information might benefit someone. If after a dozen roll or so it's still fine, same thing

For the mixing part alone I'll probably stick with XT-3. Fomadon Excel was a pain in the ass to dissolve, definitely need warm water.

foc · May 16, 2023

npl said:
Fomadon Excel was a pain in the ass to dissolve, definitely need warm water.

How warm did you need?

John Wiegerink · May 16, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I would have tested it first. I have found that XTOL and Replenished XTOL is properly stored [sealed] can last years untouched.

Are you Sirius! Of course I tested my replenished Xtol. In fact, I tested the batch I dumped for about 4 1/2 years. Yes, it was getting pretty grungy so it was time to go.

Sirius Glass · May 16, 2023

John Wiegerink said:
Are you Sirius! Of course I tested my replenished Xtol. In fact, I tested the batch I dumped for about 4 1/2 years. Yes, it was getting pretty grungy so it was time to go.

That happens.

John Wiegerink · May 16, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
That happens.

Yup, I filtered it several times, but it got to the point where it had just had enough.

npl · May 17, 2023

foc said:
How warm did you need?

According to the datasheet it should be in water ranging from 20°c to 30°c. I think the one time I mixed it it was 21/22°c, and some chuncks of the second package were very hard to dissolve. Could be a bad package, though.

Sirius Glass · May 17, 2023

foc said:
How warm did you need?

npl said:
According to the datasheet it should be in water ranging from 20°c to 30°c. I think the one time I mixed it it was 21/22°c, and some chunks of the second package were very hard to dissolve. Could be a bad package, though.

Within the specifications, I find the warmer the water the faster and easier the chemicals go into solution.

Donald Qualls · May 17, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
the warmer the water the faster and easier the chemicals go into solution.

This is pretty much a universal rule. As long as the temperature isn't high enough to break down organics like phenidone, the hotter the water the easier it is to dissolve anything.

npl · Nov 27, 2023

I lost count of how many time exactly I replenished my 1000ml working solution of originaly XTOL-R with 70ml fresh stock solution of XT-3 after each roll, but I'm sure at this point that there's not much Xtol left. I also quickly forgot to test the PH..

I always develop one roll of 35mm at a time, and it's almost always fomapan 100. All I can say is that with the same times, I didn't notice neither over or undevelopement. In other words it ended up working fine for my purpose.

Please note that I do not know how much the activity of the working solution changed and if it was in the normal margin of a replenished workflow with Xtol or not. All I can say is that it didn't ended up as a catastrophic failure and my negatives didn't looked better or worst

Replenish Xtol with a clone (Fomadon Excel, Adox XT-3 ..)

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