Replacing Sulfuric Acid

mrred · Apr 21, 2012

I am trying to eliminate the use of sulfuric acid from my reversal process as it is becoming expensive and a PITA to get.

I know that Sodium Bisulphate can be used, but have not found any reference to the amount used. Does anyone know the amount to make the equivalent for a 2% 1l of Sulfuric Acid?

Bob-D659 · Apr 21, 2012

You can probably get it at your local autoparts store, in a 5 gallon cubetainer. Packaged and sold for filling batteries. Or try a friendly motorsports dealer, they almost always have a box sitting on the shelf in the service dept.

mrred · Apr 21, 2012

I can't do that here (Canada), which is why it gets to be a pain. If I buy it at a parts store or a garage, they are required to fill a battery with it before I can leave. It's a controlled substance here.

I have to by the acid at chemical supply outlets which makes it expensive and on obtainable on short notice. Sodium bisulfate I can get by the ton, no questions asked.

I gew up with a father who was a mechanic. There was always gallons of this stuff as he used to refurbish car batteries. Where is that time transporter?

Worker 11811 · Apr 21, 2012

Just gut an old battery, take out the plates, clean out the interior and take it to the store to be "refilled."

Photo Engineer · Apr 21, 2012

mrred said:
Where is that time transporter?

Look for a blue Police Box with your name on it.

Sorry you are having problems. Many US chemical suppliers will sell Sulfuric Acid by the liter or half liter. It must be dilute, but then you just compensate in the formula. If you get 37% battery acid, then use about 2.5x more. You can figure it out from here.

PE

Nicholas Lindan · Apr 21, 2012

mrred said:
[Sulfuric Acid is] a controlled substance here [in Canada].

Wow, Canadian winters must be really grim if folks are taking Sulfuric Acid as a recreational drug!

Another source of Sulfuric Acid is drain cleaner - you can't use Drano in a clogged toilet but you can use acid. There are some toilet clogs you just don't want to tackle with a snake or plunger. In Cleveland the local brand is called 'Assault' - don't spill it, it's concentrated acid (unlike 38% battery acid) and puts a hole in the bath mat in seconds. Hmmm... in Canada you may have to bring the clogged toilet with you to the hardware store and have them put the acid in it for you.

I'm with Worker - get a junk motorcycle battery - something with plugs - gut it, and have them fill it.

There should be some way of removing the lead sulfate from the battery acid already in an old battery. Maybe plate the lead out with a battery charger and a couple of carbon rods?

brucemuir · Apr 21, 2012

Hey Red, there is a reversal recipe using sodium bisulphate.
My notes are on my other computer but I found it in one of the main recipes floating around that I bet you have already read at one point of your investigations.

I think it is in the Osbahr method.

If you cant find it I'll look up what I have later tonight.

ME Super · Apr 21, 2012

According to http://www.angelfire.com/wi/spqrspqr/photo/bwreversal.html, which refers to a fellow by the name of Fritz Brown on photo.net, you can substitute 55g of sodium bisulfate for 12mL concentrated sulfuric acid to make up 1L of dichromate bleach.

Hope this helps.

brucemuir · Apr 21, 2012

ME Superduper to the rescue!
That is indeed the place I read it (not Osbahr, sorry) and I have used it successfully due to the same reason you're exploring it now.
I did pick up some battery acid recently from a local auto parts chain store and was surprised it was fairly easy to get through that avenue. The amount you could buy wasn't very much. 2 litres maybe I forget.

mrred · Apr 21, 2012

ME Super said:
According to http://www.angelfire.com/wi/spqrspqr/photo/bwreversal.html, which refers to a fellow by the name of Fritz Brown on photo.net, you can substitute 55g of sodium bisulfate for 12mL concentrated sulfuric acid to make up 1L of dichromate bleach.

Hope this helps.

That was exactly what I was looking for. I read it somewhere about a year ago and could not, for the life of me, remember where.

Thanks....Time to go and get a 5 gal bucket....

nworth · Apr 22, 2012

4.3 g of sodium bisulfate anhydrous should be roughly equivalent to 1 ml of concentrated sulfuric acid. Use 5 g for the monohydrated version.

Tom Taylor · Oct 13, 2015

950mL of concentrated SA is available here for less than the Formulary sells 100mL of 48%. I wonder if it's any good:

http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=sulfuric&gclid=CNXFkZOpwMgCFUFufgodPFMPfQ

Thomas

Photo Engineer · Oct 13, 2015

Home Depot sells the stuff and it is very pure.

PE

Tom Taylor · Oct 17, 2015

It arrived yesterday - well packed and wrapped in a flame retarding blanket. It's not clear like the SA from the Formulary but is a light yellowish brown color - like Dektol. The color results from adding 2 ppm of iron which is done for safety reasons. I wonder if the iron will have any effect on the bleach in processing? Another vendors sells the same volume without the iron additive but is priced 3x as much.

Thomas

davedm · Oct 17, 2015

2ppm iron is not going to affect bleach working solution

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fdonadio · Oct 17, 2015

Wait... If you add iron to sulfuric acid, shouldn't it turn into iron sulphate and release hydrogen?

mrred · Oct 17, 2015

Tom Taylor said:
It arrived yesterday - well packed and wrapped in a flame retarding blanket. It's not clear like the SA from the Formulary but is a light yellowish brown color - like Dektol. The color results from adding 2 ppm of iron which is done for safety reasons. I wonder if the iron will have any effect on the bleach in processing? Another vendors sells the same volume without the iron additive but is priced 3x as much.

Thomas

Considering most of the bleaches come down to %2 of SA, I suspect your biggest problem will be mishandling an acid that concentrated. The bottles I have are %20 and I like that safety margin much better.

Rudeofus · Oct 18, 2015

fdonadio said:
Wait... If you add iron to sulfuric acid, shouldn't it turn into iron sulphate and release hydrogen?

At 2ppm we're talking about minuscule amounts, and the Hydrogen is already released (and soon after gone for good) when the Iron is added to the Sulfuric Acid.

Rudeofus · Oct 18, 2015

Tom Taylor said:
It arrived yesterday - well packed and wrapped in a flame retarding blanket. It's not clear like the SA from the Formulary but is a light yellowish brown color - like Dektol. The color results from adding 2 ppm of iron which is done for safety reasons.

Could anyone tell me how 2 ppm Iron would improve safety of concentrated Sulfuric Acid?

fdonadio · Oct 18, 2015

Rudeofus said:
Could anyone tell me how 2 ppm Iron would improve safety of concentrated Sulfuric Acid?

That's a way better question than the one I asked!

fdonadio · Oct 18, 2015

Rudeofus said:
At 2ppm we're talking about minuscule amounts, and the Hydrogen is already released (and soon after gone for good) when the Iron is added to the Sulfuric Acid.

It sure is a negligible amount. Would be classifiable as an impurity...

trythis · Oct 18, 2015

So I have 5 gallons of Sulfuric Acid in glass lab bottles. I think its high grade lab stuff. I have had it since 1995 in unopened bottles.

Was thinking of getting rid of it. Not to hijack your thread but is thus stuff useful in color or black and white developing?

I'm in St Louis if anyone wants it.

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Photo Engineer · Oct 18, 2015

It is used in processing color motion picture film.

PE

falotico · Oct 18, 2015

Can't help but wonder where it is used in motion picture developing. Does it lower the Ph of a solution? Is it an alternative to a stop bath? This is not an important point but it has piqued my curiosity. Please enlighten me, Meiyo shashin enjinia.

fdonadio · Oct 18, 2015

falotico said:
Can't help but wonder where it is used in motion picture developing. Does it lower the Ph of a solution? Is it an alternative to a stop bath?

Acids lower pH of any solution. They're acids...

Sulphuric acid is mentioned on page 31 of the document at http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uplo...t_en_motion_support_processing_h247_h2407.pdf. It's the main ingredient of the stop bath, yes.

EDIT: Sulphuric acid is also mentioned as the recommended substance to adjust the pH of almost all other bathes.

Replacing Sulfuric Acid

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