Replacing shutter on 55mm Mamiya TLR lens.

LJH · Jun 30, 2016

Before I get prices on an attempted CLA on my 55mm lens, I was hoping to get some information on replacement options for a jammed aperture/sticky shutter. I have the black Seiko shutter on this.

Is it possible to switch the shutter for a silver version? I know that this is possible for Copal shutters in LF, but didn't know whether there is a design difference between the newer and older lenses.

If I can get a cheap one, can I use a complete shutter assembly from a 65mm lens?

My searches haven't provided any answers for this. Plenty out there on how to service a silver shutter, but nothing on the black.

Thanks in advance.

LJH · Jul 3, 2016

Bump.

Dan Daniel · Jul 3, 2016

I can't answer specifically to your question. I can say that the major differences in shutter desin over time that affect interchangeability are cocking system and direction of travel. For example, Minolta Autocord shutters change cocking method and direction from one design to another, leading to internal changes in the wind/cocking mechanism in the camera body. I also know that the Synchro-Compur shutters used in Rolleiflexes change the direction of travel for changing both shutter speed and aperture about 1955.

Generally, as you know in large format lenses, a #00 shutter is a #00 shutter. I can put a Zeiss lens from 1938 on a Minolta Autocord body using a #00 shutter and it works fine. I have a Schneider Xenotar 80mm mounted in a #0 shutter for view camera work. If you go to the SK Grimes site, they have dimensions of standard shutters; you can determine if your model matches any of them which most likely they do.

Well, nothing concrete to help you, but just to give a bit of the lay of the land- most likely a swap is possible, but not knowing the cocking and such systems on Mamiya TLRs I can't give specific answers.

shutterfinger · Jul 3, 2016

Chrome/silver barrels and shutter cases were the standard until the late 1960's when they changed to black. Its more the cosmetics of the manufacture era than anything else. The lens serial number will give you a clue to its age, smaller number-older lens. Its doubtful the shutter has a serial number but the same will apply to it if it does. There were production changes to all/most makes of shutters over the years. Most will be minor within a 10 year span, major in a 30 year span. I have repaired Compur shutters from the late 1930's to early 1940's with a service manual from the mid 1960's to early 1970's. The differences were not that great.
If you are experienced with shutter servicing then removing the front cover and possibly the speed ring and comparing it to the manual for the black case shutter will tell you if they are close or not. If you are not familiar with shutter servicing then send it out to a qualified service person. The number of trip cycles in a sluggish state will have a greater effect on the shutter's wear than the same number of cycles in a non sluggish state. The total usage will affect whether it returns to proper operation, not its age.

MattKing · Jul 3, 2016

The Mamiya TLRs used Seiko shutters of various types over the years.

shutterfinger · Jul 3, 2016

MattKing said:
The Mamiya TLRs used Seiko shutters of various types over the years.

and information on Seiko shutters is not as readily available as other makes of shutters. Seiko shutters were used on a few Large Format lens which is why I'm not that familiar with their internal workings. The difference between a Seiko and Compur, Copal, or Prontor is no greater than the difference between the Compur and Prontor or either of these and a Copal. My first shutter was a Seiko on a 127mm RB lens, its main cocking gear shaft was severely worn and not repairable. That was over 20 years ago.

An older shutter can be serviced with the newer service manual without much difficulty, attempting to service a newer shutter with an older manual will be very difficult to near impossible which is why only the later version manuals are available on line once the shutter production ended.

LJH · Jul 4, 2016

Thanks for the thoughts.

I'm more interested in finding out about direct swaps of the lens' cells. For instance, can I do a direct swap into a Mamiya TLR 65mm set?

What got me thinking is the sub-shutter block on the 180mm and 250mm, and didn't know whether there is the same "blocking" between the 55mm and others. I'm just concerned about losing infinity focus on the 55mm.

Guess I can just swap out the shutter...

Christiaan Phleger · Jul 4, 2016

those seiko's were pretty durable but I know some parts for the chrome ones are not available for a long time. The black shutters seem pretty easy to work on; you may want to have a look at doing it yourself most shutters can do with a very basic flooding style solvent cleaning and 'spring' back to like. YMMV

shutterfinger · Jul 4, 2016

When swapping lens cells from one shutter or barrel to a different one the cell spacing must be maintained. Use a digital caliper and measure
1. overall length, front to rear of the lens.
2. remove the front cell and measure from the shutter/barrel edge to the shutter or aperture blades. reinstall the front cell.
3. remove the rear cell. measure from the shutter/barrel rear edge to the aperture blades.
4. measure the cells thread pitch and diameter.
5. measure the replacement shutter, measurements 2, 3, and 4 must match. attach the lens cells and check that measurement 1 matches.
6. transfer the aperture scale to the new shutter or barrel if the measurements of the replacement shutter/barrel are the same as the original or make a new aperture scale.

John Koehrer · Jul 4, 2016

And watch for shims they're used to set the spacing. lens may or may not have some.
If you already have the 65 shutter and the cells fit, try swapping them Force Nothing.
Fit? Good lock the shutter open, and a ground glass/tracing paper and check focus
at the film plane at infinity. You don't need 5 miles away, something like a power tower a block or three away works OK
you don't need The moon, photographic infinity is about 500X the focal length

shutterfinger · Jul 5, 2016

John Koehrer said:
photographic infinity is about 500X the focal length

I frequently set up infinity on large format cameras with infinity stops and calibrate rangefinders. The coastal hills when measured on Google maps are 3/4 mile (3960 feet) from my window. The tree line is very sharp and easy to focus on. If I use this as my infinity target, set up the camera or rangefinder then look at a further distance or celestial object the focus is soft or the rangefinder will not achieve consistence. I set up with the lens wide open.
There is an office building 1 1/8 miles (5940 feet) away that when used as the setup target renders celestial objects tack sharp with lens wide open and rangefinders achieve consistence.

I do not like having to stop lens down to f8-f16 to get distant objects tack sharp.

gone · Jul 5, 2016

If it were me I would sell what you have for what you can get and buy another working lens w/ shutter. Sometimes the simplest solution is the best one. KEH has what you want for $289 in EX condition w/ a 180 day warranty, which is the really attractive thing.

The second link below may be more to your liking. An eBay lens/shutter that has had a CLA and is $100 cheaper. My preference would be for the KEH lens because they're great people to deal with, and it has that warranty thing going for it.If what you have works for a swap, 200' away is fine for infinity focus, especially w/ a wide angle MF lens. That thing probably makes infinity in less than half that distance.

Dead Link Removed

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mamiya-SEKO...859487?hash=item465088e4df:g:e64AAOSwsFpWTp8O

John Koehrer · Jul 5, 2016

Considering the ~$300 for used, and that a CLA is ~$100 I'd opt for the CLA

LJH · Jul 5, 2016

Thanks, everyone. (Although I still don't know about interchanging the shutter assemblies between the 55 and the 65mm lenses)...

Replacing shutter on 55mm Mamiya TLR lens.

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