Replacement paper for Azo

Eric Jones · Jan 30, 2006

In my case curves would allow me to make some sort of object decision on the paper without having seen it. Michael says a side by side prints of Azo and Brand X were nearly identical visually. I see no reason not to belive this. In my case I am trying to decide if I want to commit my yearly paper budget since my photography has been moving toward contact and alt. process printing now. I would like to think the manufacturer of the paper would control their process in a scientific way when things are scaled up. BTW, I've always been curious, how big is a master roll anyways?

And I'd have to agree with Johnny, this thread is better than Law and Order repeats, much livelier characters.

Bob F. · Jan 30, 2006

johnnywalker said:
What?!? Hey, this thread is better than Law and Order re-runs, so don't spoil it.

Better hair styles too!

Oh damn! I wasn't going to post in this thread...

Ho hum...

Cheers, Bob.

Curt · Jan 30, 2006

didn't get an email about the order from M & P. guess just one mistake and your cut off the list.

Jorge · Jan 30, 2006

brYan · Feb 1, 2006

Maybe I'm wrong, but here's my analogy...

An automaker decides to produce a new automobile based on availability and demand. The automaker accepts full financial responibility for bringing the product to market. The automaker takes advanced orders for the new product. The buyer accepts the risk that this new automobile may be flawed. The product is manufactured, and buyers' orders are filled and shipped.

It's up to the buyer if he trusts that the automaker will make a satisfactory product when placing an advanced order. Otherwise he should wait and see how the new automobile performs for others, and then make the decision whether to buy or not to buy.

I don't understand how this transaction by the buyer can be considered an investment.

photo8x10 · Feb 1, 2006

Thanks to Michael and Paula, I've just placed my order of new paper.

Best

Stefano

jd callow · Feb 1, 2006

brYan said:
I don't understand how this transaction by the buyer can be considered an investment.

It can't because it is not an investment.

sanking · Feb 1, 2006

Yeah, it amazes me that anyone could see it otherwise.

The offer was very clear as presented by Michael Smith. You pay this amount of money and at some point in the near future you will receive this amount of AZO replacement paper. Or, you pay this amount of money and you get an AZO portfolio of prints by Michael and Paula. No other promises made or suggested.

An investment is a whole different cup of tea.

Sandy

mrcallow said:
It can't because it is not an investment.

Aggie · Feb 1, 2006

Amazon and other book sellers routinely take advanced orders for unpublished books. NYC takes advance ticket sales for unopened Broadway plays. All of which are unproven entities. People may know the past work, but there is no guarantee that the new stuff will be any good. Neither of those two incidences sited are investments. Neither is the azo presale.

Mark Layne · Feb 1, 2006

I suppose then one could consider a preordered Ford an investment
Mark

Mike Lopez · Feb 1, 2006

I just invested in some Thai food to pick up on the way home. I can already taste it.

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 1, 2006

Whether one thinks it's technically an "investment" or not, and I don't, the real issue is that it's a risk. I think it's a safe enough risk to toss a few hundred dollars at, so that I can see for myself whether the new product appeals to me. Some might not want to take that much of a chance, and some may feel comfortable enough financially and confident enough in Michael to risk a considerable sum. No one is being duped here, and I think anyone involved is intelligent enough to decide how much they are willing to stake, so I don't see it as my place to criticize those who decide to risk more or less than I do.

My real hope is that it will be superior to Azo, and against Michael's wishes it will be coated on triple weight paper, but if it's just similar to Azo and on single weight, I'll make do, and if it turns out that the paper is good enough for Michael and Paula, but not attractive to me, then I'll just sell it to someone else who will like it.

sanking · Feb 1, 2006

Completely absurd.

Investment in a legal sense carries the implicit undrestanding of a financial return on your money.

This thread has become truly absurd.

And just by chance, "how strange," "que coincidencia", and "quelle coincidence", flamed by the same zebras who have shown their stripes vis-a-vis Michael Smith many times in the past.

A risk? Yes, of course, and you know exactly what the risks are going in. And the person to whom you turn should this all turn out bad.

Sandy

jdef said:
in·vest·ment ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-vstmnt)
n.
The act of investing.
An amount invested.
Property or another possession acquired for future financial return or benefit.
A commitment, as of time or support.
A military siege.
Archaic.
A garment; a vestment.
An outer covering or layer.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

As defined above, a large purchase of paper could reasonably be considered an investment, but like I said, it depends on how one chooses to see it, and I don't have an argument either way.

Jay

Sean · Feb 1, 2006

sanking said:
Completely absurd.

Investment in a legal sense carries the implicit undrestanding of a financial return on your money.

This thread has become truly absurd.

And just by chance, "how strange," "que coincidencia", and "quelle coincidence", flamed by the same zebras who have shown their stripes vis-a-vis Michael Smith many times in the past.

A risk? Yes, of course, and you know exactly what the risks are going in. And the person to whom you turn should this all turn out bad.

Sandy

well said.

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 1, 2006

sanking said:
A risk? Yes, of course, and you know exactly what the risks are going in. And the person to whom you turn should this all turn out bad.

Sandy

Exactly. I said no more and no less than this, and I think it's a risk worth taking. I've taken similar risks on _Emulsion_ magazine, Chinese amidol, now this, and Freestyle's 11x14" Tri-X offer, and I'm not too worried about any of them.

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 1, 2006

I think the reason that the talk of an "investment" is problematic, is that it suggests that Michael and Paula are doing something improper or illegal, and that if the SEC knew about it they might shut it down.

As I see it, they are being as up front as they can, and the burden is on the purchaser, given the information that is available, to decide how much of a risk to assume.

sanking · Feb 1, 2006

Who is name calling?

I am simply calling into question your judgment and knowlege as it involves the concept of investment, and pointing out that some people ( you included) have a rather long history of discord with Michael Smith.

Is that name calling? I think not. From my perspective, just a plain expression of fact.

Sandy

jdef said:
I agree, David, but I think there's room between embezzelment and a simple advanced order for intelligent duiscussion. I don't see any need for name-calling or the casting of aspersions in either direction.

Jay

sanking · Feb 1, 2006

Jay,

You can put any external clothing/mask on this as you like, (zebra, jaguar, puma, tiger, or jackass), but the fact of the matter is that you have a long history of discord with Michael Smith. Now, you would not deny this, would you? So why would any reasonable person accord you any credibility re: your opinions of Michael?

Sandy

jdef said:
Sandy,

unless you believe me to be a Zebra, it's name-calling. Jackass.

Jay

Michael Kadillak · Feb 1, 2006

Mr. Jay.

You made it clear a long time ago that you neither have the money or the interest in this endevour. The only reason that you are still here is that for some strange reason anything related to MAS turns you into the connsumate party pooper. If you think that is NOT the case, just review your posts.

Just like the TMY sheet film arrangement that is done, people will find a way to support the Azo deal and it will be highly successful.

Let it go my man. Life is to short. Go do something productive.....

jd callow · Feb 1, 2006

There being no real issues, it has devolved into semantics. Only so some doubt can be tossed.

Get over yourself Jay.

M&P are crawling out on a limb to support traditional photography (LF and ULF specifically) the thing we all share. If you have a problem with Michael it sure as hell shouldn't be about this.

As a moderator I'm of a mind to say close this thread, but just as people are smart enough to know which direction to take with regard to the paper, I'm sure they know what is going on here.

Richard Boutwell · Feb 1, 2006

you guys are bickering so much that it is going to make start enlarging again. I bet they don't get their panties in a twist over MGIV. Maybe it all has something to do with hobbyists . . . Get out your camera and get off apug for a while---fkn chill

Curt · Feb 1, 2006

"When we all think alike, no one is thinking."

What's the matter with controlled discussion? Of course everyone disagreeing with me should shut up and go away.

Sean · Feb 1, 2006

some great reading here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Scott Peters · Feb 2, 2006

Perhaps you should refer to your own quote

Jay...

"No man is so foolish but he may sometimes give another good counsel, and no man so wise that he may not easily err if he takes no other counsel than his own. He that is taught only by himself has a fool for a master."

Perhaps you should listen to the counsel of many on this site who feel you are in the wrong....and not take no other counsel than your own.....

Life is short.

Michael and Paula are doing a wonderful thing for those of us that love AZO. I appreciate their efforts.

sanking · Feb 2, 2006

Jay,

You are free to believe and think what you will. However, iMHO you have no credibility in your comments re: Michael Smith. To put it plain and simple, your opinions are biased and prejudiced because of your multiple negative interactions with Michael in the past. And those interactions can be documented, and copied here for public evaluation, by anyone with the time and inclination to do so.

Sandy

jdef said:
Of course not, but I believe myself capable of respectful disagreement, and reserve name-calling for humerous opportunities. You seem to believe that everything is personal. I don't share that belief, and choose to discuss, even argue on the basis of the issues at hand, and not on the basis of personal history. Read this thread and count how many times the referrences or arguments directed at me are personal and unrelated to the issue under discussion. The fact that I rarely agree or sympathize with MAS does not in itself validate his arguments, or the arguments of those posting on his behalf, or in sympathy with him. I know the thread is winding down when the discussion turns to my history with MAS, instead of any topic worth discussing. I have called for reason above passion, and understanding above rancor in nearly every post I've made here. I leave the smoldering ruins of this discussion for you to poke and prod as you see fit.

Jay

Replacement paper for Azo

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Replacement paper for Azo

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