Removing Spotone ink from print

Marco B · Feb 13, 2010

Hi all,

Spotting prints is not really my fortitude, and I generally try to keep my negatives as clean as possible, but recently I had a roll that I somehow managed to damage (still haven't figured out exactly where it went wrong), and that required spotting for a couple of prints.

Now I did manage to get some acceptable results, but also ditched two prints as I accidentally added to much Spotone ink (some old stock I still had) on the paper, which proved difficult to remove. I did notice the ink was slightly water soluble again by using a wet brush, but was unable to remove the ink properly using some absorbent paper, so I ditched the prints.

After that, a bit late, I started wondering if there is a good way to remove retouches of Spotone ink or comparable products and inks from fibre based papers :confused:

I found one link suggesting a dilute solution of simple plain ammonia:

http://photo.net/black-and-white-photo-printing-finishing-forum/006PyU

Have others ever used such method for removing Spotone retouches gone wrong? Any success or other suggestions for successfully rescuing a (fibre based) print with to much retouching ink?

Please: no suggestions for spotting itself: there are enough sources on APUG and the tips in the above link for that, I am interested in the removal part of the question...

Marco

Ian Grant · Feb 13, 2010

My Spotone's a few thousand miles away but don't hthe instructions suggest Sodium Bicarbonate solution ?

Ian

Marco B · Feb 13, 2010

Ian Grant said:
My Spotone's a few thousand miles away but don't hthe instructions suggest Sodium Bicarbonate solution ?

Ian

My Spotone came without instructions, I just have to little bottles in black and sepia. The sodium bicarbonate seems to make some sense though in the light of the other ammonia suggestion. Both are mild alkalines, and used for cleaning purposes...

fschifano · Feb 13, 2010

I don't know about the sodium bicarbonate, but I've removed Spotone by soaking the print in slightly warm water for about 10 minutes.

removed-user-1 · Feb 13, 2010

fschifano said:
I don't know about the sodium bicarbonate, but I've removed Spotone by soaking the print in slightly warm water for about 10 minutes.

What he said.

Marco B · Feb 13, 2010

fschifano said:
I don't know about the sodium bicarbonate, but I've removed Spotone by soaking the print in slightly warm water for about 10 minutes.

Thanks guys, this is a clear answer.

Next time, I will definitely keep the print and send it through a good wash to restore it. A waste to throw out a good print just because I screwed up the spotting the first time.

Marco

RalphLambrecht · Feb 13, 2010

Marco B said:
Thanks guys, this is a clear answer.

Next time, I will definitely keep the print and send it through a good wash to restore it. A waste to throw out a good print just because I screwed up the spotting the first time.

Marco

I like to hear about your results. In my experience, nothing removes Spotone sufficiently once it has dried. I found this somewhere a while back, but have not tried it:

Go to a drugstore or place where they sell ladies make-up. Buy some small make-up sponges. Anytime you get too much Spotone on a print, let it dry. Then, put pure ammonia on the sponge, squeeze it to get most out, and GENTLY wipe the offending dark spot. Ammonia will remove Spotone. After it is dry, try spotting again.
In case you don't know, never use Spotone right from the bottle. Too easy to put on too much. Pour some in a white saucer, and let it sit overnight to evaporate. Then, moisten a brush and work with the dry Spotone. Much more control over density.

Frank Rome, NY

The Spotone instructions recommend to add a drop of water, to let it soak and blot it off. I have done that with modest success.

I'm happy to email the instructions to subscribers of APUG if they send me a note to:

info@darkroomagic.com

because the company does not exist anymore. It's a file of 1.8 MB, and consequently, too much for APUG.

fschifano · Feb 13, 2010

I've done it Ralph, and it works. From the looks of it, Spotone is nothing more than a water soluble dye. Leave the print in water and it will dissolve and diffuse out of the gelatin, just like fixer or anything else that's water soluble. If enough Spotone was applied and it got down into the paper's fibers, well that's another story.

jeffreyg · Feb 13, 2010

In addition to the other suggestions I would add that before spotting the print have a piece of processed paper or the border of your print (if it will be cut off anyways) and spot it until you get the tone you want then apply to the print. It can be time consuming but better than messing up a print.

RalphLambrecht · Feb 13, 2010

jeffreyg said:
In addition to the other suggestions I would add that before spotting the print have a piece of processed paper or the border of your print (if it will be cut off anyways) and spot it until you get the tone you want then apply to the print. It can be time consuming but better than messing up a print.

I vote against that method for several reasons.

The appearance of tone very much depends on the surrounding tones (see 1st attachment). Testing for an appropriate tone on a white border will always leave you with too little ink, because the test patch will look darker than what you actually need. This in itself is not a bad thing, because it is better to err on the side of lightness rather than ending up with too dark of a spot.

However, the method also implies that the right tonality has to be applied in one go. That is not the case. Once should apply numerous applications of light ink, slowly moving up to the right tonality. This is hard to do on the white border away from the actual application area. It's better to apply very light ink several times (five or more) until the surrounding tones are not quite matched. At that point, spotting can be stopped before it becomes detectable (see 2nd attachment).

Marco B · Feb 14, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
The appearance of tone very much depends on the surrounding tones (see 1st attachment).

However, the method also implies that the right tonality has to be applied in one go. That is not the case. Once should apply numerous applications of light ink, slowly moving up to the right tonality.

Thanks Ralph. I have been fully aware of these issues of apparent tones for quite some time now, and do apply corrections in steps.

RalphLambrecht · Feb 14, 2010

fschifano said:
I've done it Ralph, and it works. From the looks of it, Spotone is nothing more than a water soluble dye. Leave the print in water and it will dissolve and diffuse out of the gelatin, just like fixer or anything else that's water soluble. If enough Spotone was applied and it got down into the paper's fibers, well that's another story.

Frank

Inspired by your post, I did a test today. Modest application of Spotone #3 on Ilford MGIV RC and FB. I let the dye dry for about 30 minutes, then washed both prints for another 30 minutes in warm water (30C), while rubbing the spots gently with my finger a few times. Result:

All spots became significantly lighter but clearly remained. Washing Spotone off works much better on RC prints than FB prints. Washing does not remove Spotone but may be worth it to lessen its effect. Apparently, Spotone is not completely water soluble but permanently stains emulsion and fibers.

Marco B · Feb 14, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
Frank

Inspired by your post, I did a test today. Modest application of Spotone #3 on Ilford MGIV RC and FB. I let the dye dry for about 30 minutes

Thanks for doing the test, but maybe the difference in observations is exactly in the fact that you let it dry. I can't tell for the others who suggested it, but maybe they start washing directly in case of a mishap with the spotting. In addition, the suggested ammonia and soda might be good to give a try as well in helping to wash out the Spotone.

I had quick look also in my artists manual about paints, and it states for arabic gum, the main binder used in watercolor paints, to which Spotone probably relates, as being "reversible", in the sense that the binder (arabic gum), doesn't chemically react like for example linseed oil does when exposed to air (linseed oil reacts with oxygen, and thus polymerizes to a hardened layer, artists oil paints don't dry in the classic sense of a solvent evaporating). Reversible than means that the pigment and binder can be dissolved again by immersing it in the original solvent (e.g. water).

However, it might well be that Spotone contains some other additions, that aren't "reversible", and thus make it more difficult to wash out when dried.

Marco B · Feb 14, 2010

Some additional interesting info I now read in my artist manual is that sometimes, watercolor paints but also photo-spotting paints contain albumen, which is protein from either egg-white, or extracted from blood. Albumen can be re-dissolved shortly after applying, but not when fully dried as they may become less soluble under the influence of daylight...

RalphLambrecht · Feb 14, 2010

Marco B said:
Thanks for doing the test, but maybe the difference in observations is exactly in the fact that you let it dry...

Marco

That's why I specified the time for drying. Actually, the dye dries pretty fast on FB prints if applied correctly (within 10-20 seconds). I don't see how you would have a chance to leave a spotting session, prepare a tray and wet the print before the Spotone has at least partially dried.

But again, it's still worth it, because some of the dye can be washed off.

Reinhold · Feb 15, 2010

My 1988 Spotone data sheet suggests dissolving one Alka-Selzer tablet in 8 oz of water to use as a means to de-harden an overly hard emulsion. Swab it on with a bit of cotton and spotting will be easier. Hardened emulsions are like trying to spot a waxed countertop. Hard to get the color into the emulsion, harder to get it out...

Spotone also says a plain water soak is ok for light tone removal, but darker tone removal is more effective with the Alka-Selzer solution.

Reinhold

www.classicBWphoto.com

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 15, 2010

Dilute ammonia solution is what I've always used--a drop over the area to be removed, dab, a drop or two of water to clean out the ammonia solution, repeated a couple of times, spot again. I'm fairly sure I got this method from the Spotone instruction sheet years and years ago.

RalphLambrecht · Feb 15, 2010

Reinhold said:
...Spotone also says a plain water soak is ok for light tone removal, but darker tone removal is more effective with the Alka-Selzer solution.

Reinhold

www.classicBWphoto.com

Sorry, I don't see that in the instructions. Alka-Seltzer is recommended to deal with hardened emulsions, but I don't see any recommendation for spotting dye removal. Can you point me to it?

RalphLambrecht · Feb 15, 2010

David A. Goldfarb said:
Dilute ammonia solution is what I've always used--a drop over the area to be removed, dab, a drop or two of water to clean out the ammonia solution, repeated a couple of times, spot again. I'm fairly sure I got this method from the Spotone instruction sheet years and years ago.

I'm pretty sure the ammonia treatment works, but I also cannot find that in the Spotone instructions.

Reinhold · Feb 15, 2010

It's a good thing I'm a packrat, I can't throw anything away...

My 1958 data sheet reads: "Use only plain water for a light tone removal. For lightening dark tone retouching, use the ammonia/water solution [3 to 8 drops of 10% ammonia in 1 oz water], and then washes of plain water".

The 1988 data sheet reads: "For lightening any retouching use only plain water applied with a clean brush. The longer the water remains on the spot, the lighter the retouching. For a darker tone removal use the Alka-Seltzer solution in place of the plain water."

These are from the data sheets that have the drop-by-drop mixing charts to match various paper/developer colors.

Reinhold

www.classicBWphoto.com
If that doesn't work, try: http://mysite.verizon.net/res14rg7y/

Bill Burk · Feb 15, 2010

I found the instruction sheet from Retouch Methods Co. Inc. Chatham NJ 1975.

There's a paragraph "FOR REMOVING RETOUCHING" it recommends plain water for light tone removal. For dark tone it recommends 8 drops of ammonia to 4 ounces of water. Apply and blot up, then apply plain water and blot up.

Ian, your memory isn't totally off. Sodium carbonate is mentioned, but it's recommended for preparing the surface of hardened prints to take spotone.

Ian Grant · Feb 16, 2010

Sodium Bicarbonate Bill, not Carbonate, the pH is different, actually I've seen recommendations to us Alka-Seltzer tablets.

Ian

scinysnaps · Feb 16, 2010

rthomas said:
What he said.

Same as what he said too..

RalphLambrecht · Feb 16, 2010

Reinhold said:
It's a good thing I'm a packrat, I can't throw anything away...

My 1958 data sheet reads: "Use only plain water for a light tone removal. For lightening dark tone retouching, use the ammonia/water solution [3 to 8 drops of 10% ammonia in 1 oz water], and then washes of plain water".

The 1988 data sheet reads: "For lightening any retouching use only plain water applied with a clean brush. The longer the water remains on the spot, the lighter the retouching. For a darker tone removal use the Alka-Seltzer solution in place of the plain water."

These are from the data sheets that have the drop-by-drop mixing charts to match various paper/developer colors.

Reinhold

www.classicBWphoto.com
If that doesn't work, try: http://mysite.verizon.net/res14rg7y/

Reinhold and Bill

You guys must have the better instruction sheet. I have posted mine on:

Dead Link Removed

Do me the favor and take a look if it looks anything like yours. Mine is not dated, and I can't find anything about ammonia on there. Maybe, I'm just not seeing it. If yours is different, I would be very interested to get a copy of it. Any chance to scan it?

Thanks for the help.

Reinhold · Feb 16, 2010

Ralph,

On your sheet, 3rd column, just above "GOOD BRUSHES", is the exact same paragraph as I quoted from my 1899 sheet.

I find it interesting that sometime between 1975 (Bill's sheet) and 1988 (our sheets), Retouch Methods changed their recommendations from ammonia to Alka-Seltzer. I wonder why...

My scanner is buried at the moment, I'll try to post the 1975 sheet later.

Reinhold

Removing Spotone ink from print

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