Removing remjet?

Photo Engineer · Nov 28, 2015

Dip a sponge in the alkaline rem-jet removal liquid and then hang up your film, in the dark, before you process it.

While the film is hanging, run the wet sponge down the back of the film. Rinse the sponge in water and rewet with the rem-jet liquid and repeat the process 2 or 3 times more. Then run the film through the process.

If you are using reels, then you may have to thread the film in warm water to facilitate loading wet film on the reel.

PE

carlschulz · Dec 24, 2015

I finally got around to removing the remjet on a roll I had processed back in July. I found a video online where a guy used the baking soda solution. I mixed 250ml of 100 degree water, 2 tsp of baking soda and stirred until it was all dissolved. In the video the guy agitated for 30 seconds, let it sit for 30 seconds, agitated for another 30 seconds then did a lot of rinsing. As he'd pour out the water you could see the remjet come out. I wasn't so lucky. The process did loosen the remjet nicely so I used a high quality cellulose sponge someone recommended to gently wipe the film clean under running water. We have hard water so I dunked it in photoflo, squeegeed and hung it to try. Seems to have worked like a charm. It picked up some schmutz which I can clean off before doing the high resolution scans (I was just messing around to see how it turned out). I put some sampled HERE if anyone is interested.

Mogsby · Jun 13, 2016

carlschulz said:
I finally got around to removing the remjet on a roll I had processed back in July. I found a video online where a guy used the baking soda solution. I mixed 250ml of 100 degree water, 2 tsp of baking soda and stirred until it was all dissolved. In the video the guy agitated for 30 seconds, let it sit for 30 seconds, agitated for another 30 seconds then did a lot of rinsing. As he'd pour out the water you could see the remjet come out. I wasn't so lucky. The process did loosen the remjet nicely so I used a high quality cellulose sponge someone recommended to gently wipe the film clean under running water. We have hard water so I dunked it in photoflo, squeegeed and hung it to try. Seems to have worked like a charm. It picked up some schmutz which I can clean off before doing the high resolution scans (I was just messing around to see how it turned out). I put some sampled HERE if anyone is interested.

I know this is an old thread but, I just got a 400ft roll of EXR 500T. The guy dropped it round. He works at a film lab in London that did star wars VII. He is coming back with the correct chemicals inc the pre bath in a couple of days. He doubts all the ramjet will be removed in home process as they use a complex machine with high pressure water jets and brush rollers, also the film is buffed on exit from the machine before being reeled.
I'll let you know how I get on.
Mick

EdSawyer · Sep 26, 2016

"machine with high pressure water jets and brush rollers, also the film is buffed on exit"

my guess is the cinestill hipsters have basically rolled up a DIY version of this to pre-process the film to remove remjet before respooling. Seems like a huge waste of effort, why not just order it from Kodak without remjet to begin with? For the right amount of $, I am sure they would do it. But then again why bother with the whole operation anyway, since the current portra/ektar are based on these Kodak vision 3 films anyway...

Cholentpot · Sep 26, 2016

Hello old thread.

I've developed over the last year many rolls of cine film. Vision3 500T and Eterna 250D.

I started with washing soda to remove the Remjet but after a few rolls of getting consistent botch-ups I found it was killing the emulsion. I switched to baking soda and the film has been coming out great since.

My method is soaking the film pre-dev in 4 tablespoons of baking soda in 104 degree water and agitating it for about a minute and then rinsing until water runs clear. Dev, blix as regular but before the stab I pull the film off the reel and wipe down with an eye glasses cloth dipped in photoflo (or dish soap) and rinse between passes. It take two or three passes for Kodak and the Fuji takes zero but I do it for safety anyhow. I put back on the reel and stab then hang.

Cine film is great in this day and age because of digital post. It's cheap, available and easily correctable in modern post processing.

This is an earlier attempt before I had the process down pat, 500T @ 800.

And this is a bit later after switching it up. Also 500T @ 800.

ciniframe · Oct 17, 2018

Wow, this thread just keeps going!
Anyway I bought some 16mm Tri-X reversal (Kodak 7266) and intend to use it as a negative film in my Minolta and Mamiya 16mm submini's. If I understand correctly reversal film needs special processing to develop as reversal but can be developed as a negative in regular B&W developers. It also is remjet backed so I'll try the sodium bicarbonate solution mentioned by Cholentpot in the last post.
It sure seems like a lot of this stuff is "cut and try" to arrive at what works. I have a 100ft. length of the TX so for the next 60+ rolls I'll just have to make it work. I don't want to spring another $54 for a 100ft. of Kodak 7222, 16mm Double-X which has been my standard film. (And I'm not fond of slitting down 35mm, too much waste!)

lantau · Oct 18, 2018

Does the cine TriX have a remjet coating? That's quite interesting.

5222 35mm DoubleX negative film does not have it.

trendland · Oct 18, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Dip a sponge in the alkaline rem-jet removal liquid and then hang up your film, in the dark, before you process it.

While the film is hanging, run the wet sponge down the back of the film. Rinse the sponge in water and rewet with the rem-jet liquid and repeat the process 2 or 3 times more. Then run the film through the process.

If you are using reels, then you may have to thread the film in warm water to facilitate loading wet film on the reel.

PE

I remember ram jet removing done some years ago. It wasn't a real good play. But it was more to find out if it is practical. So yes it is indeed a way.
But the problem is from difference of methods and from intention of best results in general.
AND there are real differences between.
Looking on practice from original process you sure may use the origin pre baths.
But the mechanical removing with (temperated if I remind correct) water splashes isn't be realistic homemade.
Your method PE is the nearest to the origin method. But at last you mentioned it is ECN2 film in incorrect chemicals (c41).
From my point it should be a real harder job to handle the full film in total darkness in wet condition
outside a tank. And respouling the dryed film isn't possible if the film has a rest of humity.
Ok it is the next hart job and it is to do..! Of course one may wait so long till the Film is dryed 100%.
How long is it ? 1 or better 1/a half hour? The main disadvantage of the mentioned methods from our younger colleguages above is the mix of chemistry (rem jet material in high dose inside the developers) - with your method this is avoided.
But if the mechanical rests of RAM jet particles is not the case (I pocker and state it MUST BE possible to remove rem jet 100% AFTER stop bath (like Gerald Koch) so that it is avoided to have remaining particles on the final slides is this more easyer way not more practical?

The rest is on the chemical incorectness because of remjet reaction with developer.
But c41 developer is itself incorect - who cares about?

PS : I am not realy sure if ramjet indead interact with developer.... may be it is just a too dirty soup
and it remains on the mechanical side in form of little particles wich are trying to have to stay on the emulsion ???

grainyvision · Nov 5, 2020

So I've been having a hell of a time with the remjet layer. I can remove it very easily. Specifically, I use a microfiber cloth after bleach but before fix (easy to see the remjet and the film isn't too light sensitive). However, I always get junk left behind. Not typical remjet junk though, more like a coating of white gunk. It's easily visible when shining a light on the film backing. I initially thought it was water stains. However, it didn't come off with (yea will affect archival I know, I just wanted to test) a fairly strong acid bath, pH ~2. This seemed to tell me it isn't calcium, as it'd definitely come off. Running water on the back, the back will repel water but kinda selectively, but what water is there you can clearly see little shiny bits floating on the water that pools on the film backing, moving with the water. Even with distilled water after a lot of washing of this experimental test clip. Finally, I had the idea to use alcohol. This completely removed it by soaking, and afterwards washing with water revealed no shiny bits. The base also repels water more completely and the final dry result looks to be free of this white junk, though no idea how alcohol will affect the emulsion. I'm specifically using isopropyl, though I imagine proper expensive ethanol would likely be better to prevent the typical isopropyl "film" that can sometimes form

The real question to me is how am I not finding other people with this same problem on this forum or anywhere else. I'm following Kodak recommendations as closely as possible including the official prebath formula. I've tried many final rinse baths. All distilled water, some using photo-flo, others final rinse, others nothing. Everything from a pre-final wipe down with baking soda solution to acids to perfect pH 6.5 etc. Only solution seems to be alcohol, and even then isn't perfect. I tried to use alcohol and a microfiber cloth to wipe the back, but this was a failure. It seems like I need alcohol to make the stuff soluble, but then water to carry it away. That means I can't simply wipe down the base as I was hoping.

Am I really alone in being the only one to experience this? I'm using all Kodak vision3 films.

1st image attached is the base in the dirty form. 2nd image is after attempting to clean it by squeegee (recommended by Kodak. It scratched the emulsion to a ridiculous degree)

koraks · Nov 5, 2020

I used to remove the remjet with a pre-bath of borax +sulfite and 3 washes with vigorous shaking, and after processing wiped off the film. No residues etc and very straightforward.

grainyvision · Nov 5, 2020

koraks said:
I used to remove the remjet with a pre-bath of borax +sulfite and 3 washes with vigorous shaking, and after processing wiped off the film. No residues etc and very straightforward.

I might try this next or the typical baking soda method. Apparently the sulfate in the official ECN-2 pre-bath prevents the remjet from coming off in the prebath and causes it to only come out in the post-rinse.. but original ECN-2 assumes that the post-rinse is done with 30 PSI water jets, which would clear resin mechanically. Maybe this sulfate causes the remjet resin to be more stubborn. In post-processing, it is not affected by either alkali nor acid, but I haven't tried something more alkali than the ECN-2 developer. This prebath would be the only sulfate containing bath, and apparently not many home users actually use the official one.

tlloydau · Nov 5, 2020

I've been using and recomending the alternate prebath (tap water + sodium carbonate + sodium bicarbonate) listed in the official Kodak docs (https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles/motion/h2407.pdf) for a few years now without issue. I use the prebath as my first step at or slightly above 106F, sake as vigorously as possible for 2 minutes, wash and shake at 106F (or above) until the water comes out fully clear. With Fuji Eterna the negatives almost always come out clean while the Kodak needs some physical action to clean of the remjet along with a wash or two to be certain.

Remember that you can really take the remjet off at any step in the process and you can always try re-bathing/re-washing it if things don't work out. If you're having issues sometimes it's a matter of more vigorous/physical agitation, hotter wash, etc.

grainyvision · Nov 5, 2020

tlloydau said:
I've been using and recomending the alternate prebath (tap water + sodium carbonate + sodium bicarbonate) listed in the official Kodak docs (https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles/motion/h2407.pdf) for a few years now without issue. I use the prebath as my first step at or slightly above 106F, sake as vigorously as possible for 2 minutes, wash and shake at 106F (or above) until the water comes out fully clear. With Fuji Eterna the negatives almost always come out clean while the Kodak needs some physical action to clean of the remjet along with a wash or two to be certain.

Remember that you can really take the remjet off at any step in the process and you can always try re-bathing/re-washing it if things don't work out. If you're having issues sometimes it's a matter of more vigorous/physical agitation, hotter wash, etc.

I mean, my issue is just that this isn't remjet left behind it's white scum, looks like calcium water spots but isn't. I'm now just trying to figure out a way to clean up my existing processed negatives without introducing anything that'd change pH too much and could affect dye stability. I don't have enough alcohol (isopropyl nor ethanol) to do it, so trying a much less volatile but weirder bath with a little bit of propylene glycol, distilled water, and photo-flo.

Btw, with your bicarb+carb pre-bath, does remjet begin coming out with the bath, or is it not until after you start rinsing out the bath?

tlloydau · Nov 5, 2020

Right I believe I'm thinking along the same lines you are that trying an alternate prebath is a good next step especially if not many use the one you've been using. It's possible that there's something in home processing vs machine processing that would make one version better for a scenario than the other I know the one I posted is simple/cheap/works for me in a basic paterson tank setup as a possible option.

I want to say the remjet never comes off in the prebath even with the vigorous shaking (for Kodak Vision I'd say that's definitely true). With Eterna it would come off easily in the wash and I'd just wash until no more remjet came off. With Vision the remjet seems a bit more persistent so I only really see some "color" come out in the washes after prebath. It's really only at the end when I physically wipe the surface that the remjet easily comes off. I alternate a wipe and then putting it back in the water/photoflo until no remjet comes off in the wipe.

koraks · Nov 6, 2020

tlloydau said:
I want to say the remjet never comes off in the prebath even with the vigorous shaking

With the sulfite/borax bath, about 99% comes off in the prewash. This is from Vision3 film.

grainyvision · Nov 6, 2020

koraks said:
With the sulfite/borax bath, about 99% comes off in the prewash. This is from Vision3 film.

why sulfite? Do you mean sulfate, because that's what I'm using. It does indeed mostly come off, maybe 90%, still requires a good wipe down. My problem is that after a wipe down with microfiber cloth I get water marks/white gunk/white powder that just never goes away and seemingly can be moved but not removed from the base. For reference, I never have water mark problems with any other film or process. This is my best attempt with a full film strip. Process:

* ECN-2 sulfate+borax prebath
* Rinse many times
* Repeat prebath/rinse step 2 more times
* Develop
* Stop
* Rinse
* Bleach
* Rinse
* Wipe down with microfiber cloth (back side only) several times using regular tap water
* Rinse
* Fix
* Rinse
* distilled water + photo-flo
* Dry
* Results at this point have a thick white scum primarily on the back side, but some on the emulsion side as well
* Wipe down using carbonate+bicarb bath and submersion (didn't wipe emulsion side, but submerged entire film)
* Rinse well
* Dstilled water + Kodak C-41 final rinse
* Results have less white scum, but still a noticeable amount on both emulsion and non-emulsion side. Scum seems powdery, but moving it with gloved hands results in oil-like smears

DSLR scan of results with very basic correction and increased contrast to show water marks more clearly: (sorry, Photrio is saying I can't upload a 500kb image, so use this link) https://i.imgur.com/HmSAjnB.jpg

koraks · Nov 6, 2020

earlz said:
why sulfite?

Because that's what the formula listed that I found. And no, definitely not sulfate. I wouldn't be surprised if sulfate would be far less effective. In fact, I'm surprised it seems to work at all.

grainyvision · Nov 6, 2020

koraks said:
Because that's what the formula listed that I found. And no, definitely not sulfate. I wouldn't be surprised if sulfate would be far less effective. In fact, I'm surprised it seems to work at all.

sulfate is used in the official Kodak publication. Supposedly to prevent the remjet from coming off in the prebath and only in the removal rinse

koraks · Nov 6, 2020

Alright, well, there are many ways to remove remjet. I personally don't see the advantage of having the remjet stick to the film during processing in a home processing environment.

tlloydau · Nov 6, 2020

It sounds like there's a few valid modifications here that might lead you to success:
- use distilled water ONLY (using tap water for removing the remjet seems like a potential negation of using distilled in other steps)
- try an alternate prebath (some unknown interaction is occurring between ingredient(s) in one or more steps causing deposition)
- try prebath at another point in the process to help eliminate when the deposition is occurring. go through the whole process without the prebath and let the film dry. If there's deposition after drying you know the issue isn't the prebath. If there's no deposition you've eliminated the whole rest of the process.

Whenever I'm having unexplained issues I thoroughly clean everything tank/reels/hanger clips/etc since you never know. I did poke around and found other mentions of oily/white deposition on film unrelated to ecn2 there might be valid advice there. Really interested to here what you end up finding is at fault.

lantau · Nov 6, 2020

In my experience the only way to remove remjet is to remove it mechanically. I tried the common method of shaking the film in the tank until it is supposedly all gone. It makes a mess and there will always be residual traces of remjet left.

Once softened by the prebath it begins to set, possibly some polymerisation process. After four years I still have the black dots of remjet in my plastic tub, which I use as a hot water bath. I experimented with removal of the remjet in that tub in the open (in darkness). My opinion is that you ruin your equipment if you don't remove Remjet prior to developing. That means handling the film outside the tank in the open in a dark room.

The Kodak process specifies the use of the prebath to soften, followed by removal via water jets and rotating buffers (like car polishing??).

I hang the film from a MOD54 film clip and run with a prebath soaked cloth over the remjet side several times, then rinse the cloth and wipe some more. I use a paper tissue to back the film with the other hand. The emulsion stays dry. The last step is to use the paper tissue to wipe dry the back side of the film. Then load the dry, remjet free film into the tank.

Unfortunately I don't have counter space in my bathroom to do this with the film lying down. That's what they did in the labs at Kodak, according to PE. This would allow more pressure to be applied when wiping the remjet and thus better removal. I still noticed some blue and white spots in my (digital) positives. I haven't done colour development, either C41 or ECN2, for more than a year now. It's time to get back into it. I finally have a working software tool for the conversion of the scanned negatives to good positives.

I remember PE also mentioning that he never saw ECN2 images on the internet without remjet artefacts.

Regarding colour: Residual remjet is either black, or if very thin it's a redish-brown. Hence in the positive either white or blue. Any particles that make it onto the emulsion will likely be stuck there for good.

relistan · Nov 9, 2020

@earlz you are not the only one seeing the white residue. I follow a Youtuber called Azriel Knight who ran into the same issue I have not seen it in my own development. He ended up solving it with alcohol.

I have done several rolls of Vision3 200T myself (I have 1000 ft) and had no problems with Remjet. This is what I do (this is not me):

grainyvision · Nov 9, 2020

relistan said:
@earlz you are not the only one seeing the white residue. I follow a Youtuber called Azriel Knight who ran into the same issue I have not seen it in my own development. He ended up solving it with alcohol.

I have done several rolls of Vision3 200T myself (I have 1000 ft) and had no problems with Remjet. This is what I do (this is not me):

I searched for that video (either you or someone else on another channel told me about it) but couldn't find any reference to white residue, just "remaining remjet".

I've recently moved to the carbonate+bicarbonate alternative prebath. I've only done one test run of it with full processing, but this seems to do the trick. Specifically what I do now:

* Use the Kodak carb+bicarb prebath, substituting stabilizer additive with 4ml/L photoflo 200
* Remove remjet after stop rather than after bleach
* Wipe the film using tap water + coffee filters and not a microfiber cloth.
* Use a distilled pre-final rinse, then a simple photo-flo distilled final rinse

The results I got had the base as a weird color, but I also was trying to push the film by 3 stops since I felt the need to test something other than just remjet removal. The results came out much closer to typical for me, nearly dustless and no remjet spots at all.

Radost · Mar 10, 2023

tlloydau said:
I've been using and recomending the alternate prebath (tap water + sodium carbonate + sodium bicarbonate) listed in the official Kodak docs (https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles/motion/h2407.pdf) for a few years now without issue. I use the prebath as my first step at or slightly above 106F, sake as vigorously as possible for 2 minutes, wash and shake at 106F (or above) until the water comes out fully clear. With Fuji Eterna the negatives almost always come out clean while the Kodak needs some physical action to clean of the remjet along with a wash or two to be certain.

Remember that you can really take the remjet off at any step in the process and you can always try re-bathing/re-washing it if things don't work out. If you're having issues sometimes it's a matter of more vigorous/physical agitation, hotter wash, etc.

Bump an old forum…
DO you have a copy of that document?

Flighter · Mar 10, 2023

Try https://web.archive.org/web/20200325155503if_/https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles/motion/h2407.pdf

Removing remjet?

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