removing remjet from ECN film with a prebath product?

destroya · Aug 17, 2019

freestyle is selling a prebath that, it seems, is used in the traditional ECN process to remove the remjet layer. I was just wondering on the how of it. how does it work? do you just do, according to the kodak direction, a pre-bath of 30 seconds then a rinse? or do you actually have to prewash and then manually remove the layer? I know nothing about removing remjet except the things I've read on the internet.

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/7780001-Kodak-ECN-2-Prebath-Replenisher-480ml-(produced-by-BPS)

It would be nice to be able to remove it at home if its a somewhat simple process. Directions as follows:

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/static/pdf/product_pdf/kodak/ECN-2_instructions.pdf

thanks

john

AgX · Aug 18, 2019

The original Kodak process

-) bath to weaken/dissolve the rem-jet layer

-) in a special tank:
"All Process ECN-2 compatible films with rem-jet antihalation backing must have it removed prior to development. As the film enters the machine, a prebath softens the backing for removal. The removal must be done so that none of the backing material sticks to the emulsion surface. The removal unit is designed so the combined action of water jets and buffers remove all of the backing and residual haze. Either a wet sponge or high-speed rotating buffers may be used. The buffers should only contact the film support side. Locate a film solution crossover device after the last water spray before entering the developer."

The process of the product sold by Freestyle

-) bath to weaken/dissolve the rem-jet layer

-) "Let the solution sit in the tank for 30s without agitation or inversions. Pour out the solution and rinse the film until the water (make shure to agitate during your rinse) until the water runs clear.
After further processing and final washing and before stabilizing using a wet microfiber cloth wipe down the film making sure that all of the anti-halation layer has been removed."

The manufacturer of the kit seemigly makes it from Kodak bulk kits.
You find him here:

https://www.benjaminpoulton.com/bio/

koraks · Aug 18, 2019

I use a DIY prebath that probably works similarly to the freestyle product. Here's what I do:
Soak in prebath for 2 minutes.
Dump prebath (save for later use) and fill with water. Shake tank very vigourously for 30s. Dump water. It should be quite black.
Repeat the fill water, shake, dump routine 2-3 more times. The water gradually becomes lighter and pink from the dyes that soak out of the film.
Once the rinse water has no more hint of black, process film (warm up, develop, etc).
After development, hang film up to dry and wipe last remnants of remjet from film using kitchen towel or whatever. Only the shiny (non-emulsion) side of the film needs to be wiped in principle, but I generally wipe the emulsion side (carefully!) as well.

My prebath is sulfite and borax iirc.

Photo Engineer · Aug 18, 2019

In the small scale labs at EK, we dipped the film in prebath and let soak. Then we hung it up and wiped the rem jet off with a sponge dampened with fresh prebath. Then the film was washed in running water and the back re-wiped with a sponge wet with water.

Any amount of rem-jet left behind will get into the emulsion and be trapped there leaving behind black dots. I've seen them. Many people here have had this problem.

PE

destroya · Aug 18, 2019

Photo Engineer said:
....Any amount of rem-jet left behind will get into the emulsion and be trapped there leaving behind black dots. I've seen them. Many people here have had this problem.

PE

got it. seems to complicated for me. I'll just stick with ektar

koraks · Aug 18, 2019

For what it's worth, I haven't had any issues with my approach. However, any ECN2 film is NOT a replacement/equivalent of Ektar or any other C41 film.

Gimenosaiz · Aug 18, 2019

Hello!

This is what I've done the three times I've developed an ECN film:
1. Soaking -> Three minutes at 38ºC (100ºF). It didn't produce pinky solution.
2. Sodium bicarbonate bath -> Two minutes at 38ºC (100ºF). I agitated it vigorously. It produced black solution;-)
3. Warm water bath (rinse) for another minute. I repeated this warm water rinse until I got a clear solution.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/my-first-roll-of-kodak-vision-320t.163386/

Regards,
Antonio

guangong · Aug 18, 2019

The processes described above may work with small lengths of film (but I really don’t believe that they are worth the bother since there are alternative films without backing).
After one failed attempt I never again tried to remove ramjet from 100ft of 16mm movie film...better to let professional lab with proper equipment remove it.

Patrick Robert James · Aug 18, 2019

Here is the formula for the Kodak pre bath straight from their ECN-2 instructions-

Water 27 to 38°C (80 to 100°F) 800 mL 800 mL

Borax (Decahydrated) 20.0 g

Sodium Sulfate (Anhydrous) 100 g

Sodium Hydroxide 1.0 g

Water to make 1 L

Cholentpot · Aug 19, 2019

I dump in a bunch of baking soda and 100 degree water, shake really hard and dump out. Rinse until clear, process and before the stab I take off or reel, wash under running water and run a glasses rag across the film. Put back on reel, stab. Done.

Fuji backing comes off far far easier than Kodak.

cmacd123 · Aug 28, 2019

koraks said:
For what it's worth, I haven't had any issues with my approach. However, any ECN2 film is NOT a replacement/equivalent of Ektar or any other C41 film.

Eastman Colour is a very High tech film. While fuji was in the game, it probably got more R&D than any other Kodak product - Going from XTR, to Vission 1, 2 then 3 in a little over a year for each change. (and Fuji also spent a lot of time and money upping their product)

besides the REM-Jet (which is a total advantage in the movie application, good anti-halo, anti static (important at 90 feet a minute) slippery through the camera) the problem in still use is the lower contrast design. in the original theatrical application, the negative was printed to a master positive, a printing negative and then the final film print. Low Low contrast was needed to keep the image from blocking up. (and effects shot sometimes added another set of negative and positive steps)

using the computerised methods of printing that can be corrected, but ECN looks lousy on direct printed paper.

in teh 1980s I used a lot of ECN, partly because Kodak said it would not work in a still camera, and I figured that they were joshing me - I developed some myself using chemicals measured by Teaspoons using the Dale Nevile formulas, I got rem-jet all other the place.

My "method" was to use the chemicals one shot and use two wet Photo sponges - I would hang the film with one clarn sponge on the emusion side and one on the base. Draw the sponges down slowly for 6 inches, then rinse them both in water. go back and start again until the black was gone from that part, and then proceed a bit further.

the sponge at the back was to keep the Guck from getting on the image on the emulsion side. after the black was off then I used the see-saw method to treat with stabilizer.

AgX · Aug 28, 2019

cmacd123 said:
...the REM-Jet ....is a total advantage in the movie application, good anti-halo, anti static (important at 90 feet a minute) slippery through the camera.

The REM jet layer was devised when base-integrated anti-statics did not exist yet.

It was only applied on colour films, though b&w camera films travelled at exactly same velocities.

Cholentpot · Aug 28, 2019

cmacd123 said:
Eastman Colour is a very High tech film. While fuji was in the game, it probably got more R&D than any other Kodak product - Going from XTR, to Vission 1, 2 then 3 in a little over a year for each change. (and Fuji also spent a lot of time and money upping their product)

besides the REM-Jet (which is a total advantage in the movie application, good anti-halo, anti static (important at 90 feet a minute) slippery through the camera) the problem in still use is the lower contrast design. in the original theatrical application, the negative was printed to a master positive, a printing negative and then the final film print. Low Low contrast was needed to keep the image from blocking up. (and effects shot sometimes added another set of negative and positive steps)

using the computerised methods of printing that can be corrected, but ECN looks lousy on direct printed paper.

in teh 1980s I used a lot of ECN, partly because Kodak said it would not work in a still camera, and I figured that they were joshing me - I developed some myself using chemicals measured by Teaspoons using the Dale Nevile formulas, I got rem-jet all other the place.

My "method" was to use the chemicals one shot and use two wet Photo sponges - I would hang the film with one clarn sponge on the emusion side and one on the base. Draw the sponges down slowly for 6 inches, then rinse them both in water. go back and start again until the black was gone from that part, and then proceed a bit further.

the sponge at the back was to keep the Guck from getting on the image on the emulsion side. after the black was off then I used the see-saw method to treat with stabilizer.

Can you walk me through your seesaw method. As of now the most annoying part of developing ECN is getting the film back on the reels for stab. Seesaw would get enough stab coating the emulsion?

cmacd123 · Aug 29, 2019

hold both ends of the film (one in each hand) and bend it in the middle and go back and forth in the solution for at least the minimum stabilizer time.

as far as AGX's comment, Double X (5222/7222) DOES have a clear backing layer.which they warn you needs to be abraded when splicing the film. Not sure when that came into use.

note that I am not recommending my method! it has the disadvantage of the sponge touching the emulsion. BUT at the time I figured that they was the lesser evil compared to getting the rem-jet on the image side. the Movie processing machine use a water jet to keep the black stuff away form the emulsion.

Cholentpot · Aug 29, 2019

cmacd123 said:
hold both ends of the film (one in each hand) and bend it in the middle and go back and forth in the solution for at least the minimum stabilizer time.

as far as AGX's comment, Double X (5222/7222) DOES have a clear backing layer.which they warn you needs to be abraded when splicing the film. Not sure when that came into use.

note that I am not recommending my method! it has the disadvantage of the sponge touching the emulsion. BUT at the time I figured that they was the lesser evil compared to getting the rem-jet on the image side. the Movie processing machine use a water jet to keep the black stuff away form the emulsion.

With this method does the film get enough contact with the stab as if it was on the reel? If it works I'm going to have to switch.

Ko.Fe. · Aug 29, 2019

I do have ECN-2 which I develop, scan or print from at home.
Just don’t be sissy with it.
Pre-soak with relatively hot tap water. Like minute.
Then put same temp mix of hammer sofa and cowbaby powder.
Shake like crazy, rj gunk will come out. Repeat.
Then develop. Before final washing clean it with your fingers under tap.
If film dries and rj gunk still shows up as spots here and where just squeeze it through something like Ilford cloth.
It will lieave some residuals in chemicals and on plastic reels, but again; don’t be sissy about it.

cmacd123 · Aug 29, 2019

Cholentpot said:
With this method does the film get enough contact with the stab as if it was on the reel? If it works I'm going to have to switch.

at the time I was using dale Neville's formulas which were nothing like official ECN, or even C-41. I did manage ot get usable scans out of the negatives 30 years alter. so it must have worked. I recall Formilin was involved and the film did have a distinct odor from that when they were drying. Even Official ECN-2 has changed a couple of times since then.

Cholentpot · Aug 29, 2019

Ko.Fe. said:
I do have ECN-2 which I develop, scan or print from at home.
Just don’t be sissy with it.
Pre-soak with relatively hot tap water. Like minute.
Then put same temp mix of hammer sofa and cowbaby powder.
Shake like crazy, rj gunk will come out. Repeat.
Then develop. Before final washing clean it with your fingers under tap.
If film dries and rj gunk still shows up as spots here and where just squeeze it through something like Ilford cloth.
It will lieave some residuals in chemicals and on plastic reels, but again; don’t be sissy about it.

I use a glasses cleaning cloth and run it down folder over. I'm not so careful with my ECN film.

cmacd123 said:
at the time I was using dale Neville's formulas which were nothing like official ECN, or even C-41. I did manage ot get usable scans out of the negatives 30 years alter. so it must have worked. I recall Formilin was involved and the film did have a distinct odor from that when they were drying. Even Official ECN-2 has changed a couple of times since then.

30 years is good enough for me. I'll try this next time around.

removing remjet from ECN film with a prebath product?

destroya

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removing remjet from ECN film with a prebath product?

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