Removing Gelatin Layer From Silver Gelatin Paper?

paradine · Oct 19, 2015

Hi,

I am hoping someone may be of assistance.

I am working on a project and would like to remove the layer of light sensitive gelatin from a piece of RC paper. Is this at all possible? I imagine each paper would be different based on the coating layers but could someone perhaps point me in the direction of where to look to accomplish this?

DannL. · Oct 19, 2015

May I ask "to what do you plan to transfer the emulsion layer?". You might be interested in "coating" using a liquid emulsion such as Rocklands Liquid Light. Which is essentially liquid paper emulsion in a bottle.

RobC · Oct 19, 2015

DannL. said:
May I ask "to what do you plan to transfer the emulsion layer?". You might be interested in "coating" using a liquid emulsion such as Rocklands Liquid Light. Which is essentially liquid paper emulsion in a bottle.

+1

If you explain exactly what you are trying to achieve then you will get a better answer.

For example are you trying to do this after an image has been developed or before or what?

Various companies make liquid emulsion which you can coat onto many surfaces and then print on them. Tiles, wood, metal sheet etc. Transfering a printed image would be very very difficult but can be done I believe. I read about it on a forum years ago but don't remeber the details.

If you leave a piece of paper in water for long enough the gelatin will separate but I rekon you're likely to break it trying to get it off the paper.

paradine · Oct 19, 2015

I don't know what I'm going to do with it just yet. I'm just interested in the material at this point. Is it possible to have it float off in one layer? Or can I scrape it off somehow? Just some way of separating the gelatin from the paper as a material experiment. In my head I was thinking pre-development, just the paper as is.

RobC · Oct 19, 2015

so you will need to do it in the dark which will make it mighty difficult.

M Carter · Oct 19, 2015

So it sounds like you want a solid piece of "just the emulsion"? Hmmm… sounds difficult.

I've been testing liquid emulsion on canvas, and found the Foma emulsion lifts right off in room temp water if the canvas has been primed with gesso (acrylic vs. oil). But it's incredibly delicate stuff, like jellyfish goo. I don't know if it could be lifted off in one piece or transferred to paper or… anything.

Like the others here suggest, I'd think about what sort of final image you're envisioning (even if it's just a hazy idea) and think about bottled or home-made liquid emulsions. They're very very cool products with a lot of user experience out there.

paradine · Oct 19, 2015

The thing is I don't want a bottled emulsion. I just want to see what happens when the gelatin is removed from the paper: what does that look like and is it possible? That gelatin is the image, I'm not going to produce an image on top of it afterwards.

Also I would imagine it could just be done under a safelight as with any other silver gelatin processing?

DannL. · Oct 19, 2015

I don't know how you would separate the emulsion from the paper, and keep it intact. It would have the consistency of jello. But, here's something I have done . . . only once. This happened when making dry plates for a plate camera. I took a sheet of glass, cleaned it good, and sprayed a thin layer of Minwax Polyurethane on one side. After 24 hours dry time, I coated the plate with Rockland's Liquid Light. That step can be done under a safe-light. Once that was dried, I then exposed the plate in the camera and developed it normally. I could tell during washing that the plate negative was very poor. So, while the plate was fully submersed under water, I was able to use a razor and lift just a bit of the corner of the Polyurethane/emulsion sheet from the glass. Slowly I then was able to peel the entire negative off the glass. The Polyurethane made a nice flexible yet clear backing for the negative. I suppose you could call it "Dry Plate Lift".

winger · Oct 19, 2015

If you're looking to make an image, develop and fix it, then remove it from the paper, I'd say it's not completely possible, BUT... Using the Mordançage chemistry, the areas which have been fully exposed and developed can be removed. If done carefully, you can get larger pieces. The thing is, that's only going to work on the black areas of an image. My website has a few examples of Mordançage.
If you want to remove the emulsion in its original state, I've got no idea.

Prof_Pixel · Oct 19, 2015

When I worked for Kodak on color paper, I remember visiting a large commercial photo lab (about 1975) that peeled the emulsion (containing a color image) from the RC base so that the image could be put on a canvas support. They started at a corner, using a razor blade to separate the emulsion from the base, and then further separated the emulsion from the base by rolling the emulsion up on a wooden dowel. They made it look easy; I was never able to achieve the same result. Your milage may vary.

paul_c5x4 · Oct 19, 2015

paradine said:
I don't know what I'm going to do with it just yet. I'm just interested in the material at this point. Is it possible to have it float off in one layer? Or can I scrape it off somehow? Just some way of separating the gelatin from the paper as a material experiment.

It is possible to peel the resin layer off with the gelatin coating on top, however, you will still be left with some of the paper attached. The remaining paper could soaked & rubbed off if done very carefully. However, the resulting RC film/gelatin layer would be very thin and fragile.

Prof_Pixel · Oct 19, 2015

Here's a company still offering the stripping process. http://www.museumbond.com/canvassing-works

and another one: Dead Link Removed

paradine · Oct 20, 2015

Hah! Of course museumbond is located in FL. I just moved across the pond from central FL...

Thanks for the info everyone. I will attempt to strip the gelatin layer by peeling and see what happens.

Rick A · Oct 20, 2015

Stripping can be done by laying the RC paper in a glass dish, then pouring near boiling water on it and soaking for several minutes. You may need to dump the water and redo every couple of minutes until it peels apart. You will have some paper residue on the back, but with careful rubbing it will come off. I have done this many times with paper negatives, then mounted the emulsion on to a piece of glass.

hgaude · Oct 20, 2015

It is still a current process. Several large labs to it; Millers, mid-south, Pounds. I can't imagine it is easy to do, but then I've never observed their process. The result when the emulsion is transferred to canvas is quite beautiful however and definitely has a noticeably different color palette than inkjet.

pschwart · Oct 22, 2015

paradine said:
Hi,

I am hoping someone may be of assistance.

I am working on a project and would like to remove the layer of light sensitive gelatin from a piece of RC paper. Is this at all possible? I imagine each paper would be different based on the coating layers but could someone perhaps point me in the direction of where to look to accomplish this?

It's actually possible to physically strip the polyethylene layer from RC. If you just want to remove the gelatin emulsion, a soak in diluted household bleach will suffice.

Removing Gelatin Layer From Silver Gelatin Paper?

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