Reliability of electronics in 35mm SLRs

kvnsun · Mar 25, 2017

Hi everyone, I'm sorry if this topic has come up before, but I want to ask about the reliability of the electronics, be it the shutter or auto exposure, of SLRs that have these functions.

I've been wanting a Olympus OM4TI for a while so I went down to the local used camera stores to take a look. After chatting with a few store owners, themselves users and repairers of SLRs, they suggest to me to look for full mechanical cameras like the OM1 instead. According to them, electronics in cameras will deteriorate and start to malfunction in around 30 years, and many 35mm SLRs are approaching this age. Once the electronics are gone, it will be extremely difficult and costly to repair them due to the lack of spare parts and proper skills. Full mechanical cameras on the other hand are a lot easier to maintain and will retain its value better as a result.

Is this something that is of concern to the 35mm SLR shooters here? I don't shoot enough to make a conclusion on my own, but this does make some sense and I'm slightly wary of looking at great cameras like the OM4TI and the Pentax LX.

MattKing · Mar 25, 2017

Welcome to APUG.
I have all sorts of cameras, including several OM bodies (OM-G, OM2s, OM2n and OM4T).
Although I started with an OM-1, and have owned a couple of different ones, I now don't own any.
I enjoy the extra features on my other OM bodies, and see no reason not to use them now. I've owned my OM2s since new, and the only repair I have had to have done to it has been mechanical.
With the cost of used 35mm SLRs being what it is, you could always buy more than one.

Pete Myers · Mar 25, 2017

As a photographer, the sad fact of life is that every camera is eventually going to need maintenance. With vintage film cameras the question is whether you can find someone that is highly skilled in your particular camera's repairs, and whether they have donor parts that can keep your camera running. That would include the electronics.

Let us say that you have a Nikon F3HP. There were 750,000 units made. The odds are good that electronics can be salvaged from another camera body to keep your's going should your camera's electronics fail. That said, it will be an expensive repair. Right now, most photographers just buy another unit, rather then muscle the costs of the repairs. We are still drowning in film cameras on the used market.

I have a Nikon F3HP, a Canon 1v, a Nikon F5, an Contax Aria, and two Nikon FM2n cameras. The Nikon FM2n cameras do have electronics in them for the metering, but other then that they are an all-mechanical camera. I have owned and shot extensively with a Leica R8, Leica M6TTL, and a Leica MP. I like the FM2n better---and they are quite inexpensive. Will it last forever or is it bomb proof? Nope. But they are pretty good. The K3 focusing screen is the best I have ever used, and it can be fitted into the FM2n. The K3 and diopters are easy to get as new product.

If you take to film cameras, you're likely to end up addicted like the rest of us bums, so you will have a bunch of cameras. I would overly worry. Just figure it is your first camera, and you are going to learn from it. Perhaps what you are going to learn is to never buy one again! hee hee hee! There are a lot of great film cameras out there---try a few.

Pete

MattKing · Mar 25, 2017

Pete Myers said:
I would overly worry.

I expect Pete meant to say: "I wouldn't overly worry").
If so, I agree 1000%

Les Sarile · Mar 25, 2017

As someone who has been immersed in electronics since the 70's - designed and repaired countless by now, I have a good idea of what fails in electronics in general. I have not worked on any cameras yet but given their extremely low power use, I anticipate that the only possible sources for failure would be related to moving contacts, solder points, connectors and user controls. Sooner or later I will have to crack one of these open, if nothing else just to start getting familiar with them. Schematics would come in handy.

Leigh B · Mar 25, 2017

Vintage electronics have a reputation for failure that doesn't apply directly to cameras.

The vast majority of vintage failures are of a particular part, an "aluminum electrolytic".
That type of capacitor does have a high failure rate, getting worse as they age.
I routinely work on radios from the decades before World War II.
In those I change the electrolytics without even testing them, since I know they're bad.

But those parts are not commonly used in cameras due to their large size.
Smaller capacitors of other technologies are used. They tend to be much more reliable.

Any component can fail, but the reliability of cameras from the 70s and 80s is quite good.

- Leigh

kvnsun · Mar 25, 2017

Pete Myers said:
As a photographer, the sad fact of life is that every camera is eventually going to need maintenance. With vintage film cameras the question is whether you can find someone that is highly skilled in your particular camera's repairs, and whether they have donor parts that can keep your camera running. That would include the electronics.

Let us say that you have a Nikon F3HP. There were 750,000 units made. The odds are good that electronics can be salvaged from another camera body to keep your's going should your camera's electronics fail. That said, it will be an expensive repair. Right now, most photographers just buy another unit, rather then muscle the costs of the repairs. We are still drowning in film cameras on the used market.

I have a Nikon F3HP, a Canon 1v, a Nikon F5, an Contax Aria, and two Nikon FM2n cameras. The Nikon FM2n cameras do have electronics in them for the metering, but other then that they are an all-mechanical camera. I have owned and shot extensively with a Leica R8, Leica M6TTL, and a Leica MP. I like the FM2n better---and they are quite inexpensive. Will it last forever or is it bomb proof? Nope. But they are pretty good. The K3 focusing screen is the best I have ever used, and it can be fitted into the FM2n. The K3 and diopters are easy to get as new product.

If you take to film cameras, you're likely to end up addicted like the rest of us bums, so you will have a bunch of cameras. I would overly worry. Just figure it is your first camera, and you are going to learn from it. Perhaps what you are going to learn is to never buy one again! hee hee hee! There are a lot of great film cameras out there---try a few.

Pete

hahaha film cameras are way more addicting to look at and purchase then the modern digital ones. I love the ingenuity that goes into producing the film cameras of the early 80s, and how each manufacturer (boy there's lots of them) tried to stand out with interesting designs and functions, making each camera unique in its own way.

I guess you are right in saying that if my camera were to go kaput its easier to get a new one instead of trying to repair it, but I'm interested in knowing how often would this problem occur? Will the electronics of 20-30+ year old cameras be able to withstand normal usage?

Pioneer · Mar 25, 2017

Just buy a new Nikon F6 and avoid the problem! Mine hasn't failed yet.

I suspect that a lot of electronic 35mm cameras would last for a very long time if they were kept clean. From my experience electronic components are not comfortable with dust and dirt or other crud. It creates unnecessary heat, shorts across connections (which are very tightly packed inside a camera), and also makes tiny motors and other things to have to work harder. It isn't the age, it is the accumulated crud.

Les Sarile · Mar 25, 2017

kvnsun said:
I guess you are right in saying that if my camera were to go kaput its easier to get a new one instead of trying to repair it, but I'm interested in knowing how often would this problem occur? Will the electronics of 20-30+ year old cameras be able to withstand normal usage?

My oldest fully electronic - as opposed to meter only, camera is the Minolta XK and it is fully factory functional and accurate. So these cameras can be found to be in perfect working condition but of course there is no accounting for previous user.

Bill Burk · Mar 25, 2017

kvnsun,

I use OM1 and OM4 "all the time". When I want reliable I pick up the OM1 and a separate meter.

I do not use the OM1 meter, I put no battery in the camera.

When I want to have "one thing" in my hands, I use the OM4. But I have to have spare batteries in my pocket or I don't feel I can rely on it.

Sure I made it through a weekend or two with OM4 and no spare batteries. But I was on-guard, worried that the batteries might give out at any time.

I would recommend one of each, a mechanical and electronic in the same lens mount.

Les Sarile · Mar 25, 2017

Bill Burk said:
When I want to have "one thing" in my hands, I use the OM4. But I have to have spare batteries in my pocket or I don't feel I can rely on it.

Sure I made it through a weekend or two with OM4 and no spare batteries. But I was on-guard, worried that the batteries might give out at any time.

Bill, Do you know if you have the updated board in your OM4 that doesn't too much power? I understand that you can test for this by engaging BATTERY TEST. If it automatically stops after 30 seconds, you have the updated board. In this case, I don't consider this an electronic failure as it was designed that way. I understand that Olympus offered board updates back then.

Theo Sulphate · Mar 25, 2017

I don't worry too much about, for example, my F3/T's, since the electronics are relatively simple.

I worry more about later cameras that rely entirely on motors for advance, focus, and rewind.

The more electronic subsystems there are,the greater the chance of failure in one of them. When that happens, the camera is usually unusable.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 25, 2017

A favorite expression of an engineer friend of mine is "Works like a hose." A hose is the simplest input/output device. Only two things can go wrong; it can become blocked in some fashion or it can spring a leak. Therefor the chance of a favorable outcome in using a hose is one chance in three. Statistically this is represented as (1/2)N where N is the number of components. So reliability is favored by a simple mechanical camera. However the individual components of an electronic shutter are more reliable than for a mechanical one. The most conspicuous point of failure for electronic cameras is in the LCD display. These seem to go bad after a relatively short period. Usually a digit or part of one will cease to function. However an electrically controlled shutter is more accurate than a mechanical one.

Then there is the ease of repair. Usually for electronic cameras this involves swapping out the bad module. We now come down to replacement availability. In the US companies are required to stock at least 10 years worth of repair parts for their products. This clock begins when the product enters the market. So when choosing a camera, "Yuh picks yer poison."

tedr1 · Mar 25, 2017

If we are talking about 35mm cameras from the 1970s and 1980s with a meter and maybe one autoexposure mode then the electronics are not complex and very reliable. However repairing one that does develop a fault may be more expensive than the cost of a replacement. I agree with an earlier post, go ahead and pick something with a meter and electronically controlled shutter but treat it as the first of the several film cameras you are going to own

Theo Sulphate · Mar 25, 2017

kvnsun said:
... I love the ingenuity that goes into producing the film cameras of the early 80s, and how each manufacturer (boy there's lots of them) tried to stand out with interesting designs and functions, making each camera unique in its own way.
...

Many of us do as well. You've found your home here - welcome.

AgX · Mar 25, 2017

Basically I agree with what Leigh said above.
But I have seen camera circuits going bad. The problem starts (if one is able to locate the error...) when propriatory parts were used.. Then one only could use a part from a donor camera, and maybe even have to readjust the circuit...

Gerald C Koch said:
The most conspicuous point of failure for electronic cameras is in the LCD display. These seem to go bad after a relatively short period. Usually a digit or part of one will cease to function.

Yes, I see this too, but single digits vanishing is an error that likely can be repaired. To the contrary of a display going black. Amoung the countless camera displays I got I only experienced that on two displays. And they both were at data-backs. These compounds seem to come from the same supplier for different camera manufacturers.

Bill Burk · Mar 25, 2017

Les Sarile said:
Bill, Do you know if you have the updated board in your OM4 that doesn't too much power? I understand that you can test for this by engaging BATTERY TEST. If it automatically stops after 30 seconds, you have the updated board. In this case, I don't consider this an electronic failure as it was designed that way. I understand that Olympus offered board updates back then.

Both have the old circuit board... I sent my first one back twice, both times they told me "Batteries Need Replacement"...

As late as May 1985 the new board (or memo about the problem) hadn't gotten out to the Garden Grove engineers.

But I'm used to it and I carry spares. I've carried the OM-4 on many backpacking trips, where I've carried three or four spare pairs of batteries... and I've only ever have had to replace batteries "twice" on a single trip. Never had to replace them three times.

There have been times when I had to replace the battery at "inconvenient times". Like this sunset at the Camp Nelson Lodge... I setup for a shot of afternoon sun hitting Slate Mountain... when I first fired the camera was dead. Folded the tripod, walked back to the bar (ok that wasn't so inconvenient)... sat down and replaced the batteries as I muttered something about being prepared... then went back out and got the shots.

It's a matter of general principle though. I recommend having one electronic and one mechanical body for any camera lens mount that you use... Some electronic cameras become doorstops when the battery fails.

Dali · Mar 25, 2017

With electronics, you add an extra layer of complexity by introducing new cause of failure: a component can go bad, corrosion issue, dust and old grease adding burden to moving part driven by motors, you name it. It does not mean that every mechanical camera is bullet-proof and will last forever but as already stated, high chance that failure is correlated with complexity. Last, a mechanical camera can be adjusted and possibly repaired; with electronics, once circuits are gone, they are gone...

flavio81 · Mar 25, 2017

I've had many electronical cameras and zero problems except for the meter in my Nikon F3, which died suddenly. But the rest of the camera worked normally.

I've had Canon AE-1, A-1, EOS 650, EOS 5, Nikkormat EL, Nikon FE... all of then fully electronical cameras, zero electronic problems. Also hybrid cameras like Canon EF, Canon F-1N.

Even a Pentax P30 i bought with seized mechanism had some mechanical issues that were easily resolved, but the circuits worked straight away.

Paul Howell · Mar 25, 2017

I have a brace of Minolta A mount cameras, several Pentax AF, Chinon, and have had a F3 and FG, none of them failed due to electronic issues. Nikon made F2s alone with F3s for years as many pros were fearful of the electronic shutter, as far as I know the F3s have held up as well as F2s. I don't have any experience with Olympus so don't know if the OM 4T is prone to issues, but you can buy 3 or 4 Pentaxs, Nikon N90s, Canon EOS 3s or 7s Minolta 600SI or 800Si and a set of lens and shoot for decades to come. Which is what I have done I have 7 bodes including a Minolta 9, if one gives up the ghost then toss and move on.

Sirius Glass · Mar 25, 2017

Welcome to APUG

As the OP correctly stated the electronics work well until they need to be repaired, then it is time to buy another camera. Preferably an all mechanical one.

mklw1954 · Mar 26, 2017

Cameras I have with electronics are a few Minoltas (X700, X370, XD11, XG1) and a Konica FS-1 and I've never had a problem over all these years. My understanding is the Minoltas would just need replacement of a capacitor but the Konica would not be repairable.

Les Sarile · Mar 26, 2017

Bill Burk said:
But I'm used to it and I carry spares. I've carried the OM-4 on many backpacking trips, where I've carried three or four spare pairs of batteries... and I've only ever have had to replace batteries "twice" on a single trip. Never had to replace them three times.

I wonder if the single 3V lithium battery (1/3N 2L76 DL CR1/3N) would last longer? I have read where others have adapted external battery packs for these OM's. I know that there is a Nikon DB-2 anti cold battery pack and wonder if there were similar accessories available for others?

Cholentpot · Mar 26, 2017

Bill Burk said:
Both have the old circuit board... I sent my first one back twice, both times they told me "Batteries Need Replacement"...

As late as May 1985 the new board (or memo about the problem) hadn't gotten out to the Garden Grove engineers.

View attachment 175785
But I'm used to it and I carry spares. I've carried the OM-4 on many backpacking trips, where I've carried three or four spare pairs of batteries... and I've only ever have had to replace batteries "twice" on a single trip. Never had to replace them three times.

There have been times when I had to replace the battery at "inconvenient times". Like this sunset at the Camp Nelson Lodge... I setup for a shot of afternoon sun hitting Slate Mountain... when I first fired the camera was dead. Folded the tripod, walked back to the bar (ok that wasn't so inconvenient)... sat down and replaced the batteries as I muttered something about being prepared... then went back out and got the shots.
View attachment 175802

It's a matter of general principle though. I recommend having one electronic and one mechanical body for any camera lens mount that you use... Some electronic cameras become doorstops when the battery fails.

I roll with an F3HP and a Nikkormat. Same for a ME Super and a K1000. For Canon I have no fully mechanical backup though.

mgb74 · Mar 26, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
(snip)...Then there is the ease of repair. Usually for electronic cameras this involves swapping out the bad module. We now come down to replacement availability. In the US companies are required to stock at least 10 years worth of repair parts for their products. This clock begins when the product enters the market. So when choosing a camera, "Yuh picks yer poison."

I don't believe the 10 year requirement is correct, unless the warranty offered is for 10 years. I don't think there is any requirement (other than the warranty period) for non-automotive parts. The 10 year requirement is often touted, but when I checked into it a while back (relating to an appliance repair) I could not find any documentation. I'm open to contradiction if you can point to applicable law or FTC regulation.

Reliability of electronics in 35mm SLRs

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Reliability of electronics in 35mm SLRs

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