Regarding purchasing Automatic film processor

[muhco3]

Good day to you all ,
I need your advice purchasing an automatic film processor , film photography is a hoppy for me and I don't get a profit from it ( I develop 5-6 rolls of film every 1-2 months mixed between E6 and C-41, thus I decided to get automatic machine for consistency and hassle free operation)

I found the following options in the market currently (budget is not an issue as long as I will get consistent and least amount of troubles with it )


1-Phototherm SK4 with drier module for around 2000 USD (used and refurbished )I didn't find other units for less price

2-JOBO atl 1000 for 2500 USD (Used and refurbished) I didn't find other units for less price

3-Filmomat for almost 4000 USD (New made to order by hand in Germany )

4-osiris f1 is a Chinese processor similar to Jobo atl series for sale new for 1300 USD new , however I'm skeptical about it to to the unknown quality and lack of reviews

I'm not sure about the longevity and constancy of the Phototherm and JOBO all due to their age and difficulty to source parts as I read , though the Filmomat is an expensive investment with double of their prices , however it has the advantage of being new and has less chance to having issues in the long term ,though I'm hesitant to pull the trigger on a 4000 $ purchase ....

PS : I'm not considering Jobo CPP/CPE series as they are considered semi-automatic and the price in my opinion is too expensive for what they do .

 

[sebbex]

Good question!

I have been thinking about the same "issue". At the moment I have a Jobo ATL 1000 that I use.
(I also have a Thermaphot FCP 41, which I don't use much as it's only for 135 film and I have moved to medium format. The FCP 41 is the state of the art filmprocessor, fully automatic, you insert the film cartridge in one in end, in full daylight and out at the other end comes the processed and dry film - it even cuts the film from the cartridge and replenishes the chemicals at the end of the cycle. This -real mini- minilab can use standard C41 chemicals and comes in a form factor that is comparable with a Jobo ATL 1000, only higher. It's a bit sad that there will probably never be made something similar, as it was developed in the "end" of the filmera. Probably I will sell this unit at some point to a more active user.).

But, I would also like to invest in a more long term solution that will be supported for years to come. There have been quite many initiatives when considering the market size for automatic filmprocessors. The two latest: Filmomat and Chromabox-4 by Midtone Machnies (not yet on the market). Also there is the Heiland Electronic TAS Film Processor.

My thoughts so far:
Of course I could buy a Jobo CPP 3, but as you I would like to have the fully automatic experience with -consistency- (and for convenience). The Filmomat isn't cheap but I could invest the money if it was quite certain that it will be supported and repaired for at least 10+ years. If the manufacturer would close the business (I think it's a one man business at the moment) I would stand there with a unit that cannot be serviced nor expanded with new parts, as it's seems quite complex and cannot easily be reverse engineered nor is there a big user base that can provide assistance. The same goes for the Chromabox-4 (if and when it's released). The availability of the Osiris f1 seems quite uncertain - I don't know where you can order a unit (at least outside of Asia)?

The reason I chose Jobo at the moment is because it's still supported to some extent and have a active and large user base. It can also be expanded (many of the drums are still manufactured) and it uses many standard parts (this is important) as pumps and electric motors, and quite many specific parts can be had from Germany or from spare units that are available. However, I also realize that this situation will not last forever. The unit and it's electronic will age and break at some point.

Therefore my hope is that Jobo sometime in the future will release a new Jobo ATL xxxx machine. This because Jobo as a company with several employees probably will be around for a foreseeable future providing support. A new Jobo ATL probably would use the standard drums and I and many others could use drums that we have invested in. The big question: will this happen or is it just hopeful thought from my side? A new Jobo ATL would probably be quite pricey (5000 euro?), but that would be okay (a used Jobo ATL 1000 costs over 1000 euro). For such a scenario speaks at least this post https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/does-jobo-still-make-stuff.172139/#post-2240222 and that a "enhanced" version was released in form of the Osiris F1.

My other hope is that someone else will develop a new filmprocessor (eg. Chromabox-4) and it will use mostly standard parts and that they will, for a license fee, release both relevant parts as 3D files and necessary firmware to buyers of the unit, so that they can be repaired independently if necessary. In that kind of scenario I would happily invest in a unit from a smaller provider.

 

[muhco3]

Thank you for the detailed answer ...
I believe we do agree on this point regarding the longevity of the ATL or Phototherm products as they are manufactured long time ago and no longer manufactured (though some people still repair these units in the US & UK but it would be cheap )
The Chromabox it seems like a clone of Phototherm sidekick ,and it seems it has a long way ahead of it in terms of production .

The Filmomat if you compare it to the Jobo CPP3 price wise it will be worth the money as the Jobo has a price tag of over 3500$ for a temperature controlled plastic tub with motorized drums ,while the filmomat is almost automatic (except the loading of the film and drying) , but future wise it is indeed uncertain as you said its a one man show ,though he seems dedicated and serious photographer

As for the TAS processors they have a price tag of around 1500 $ depending on the model and similar in a way to CPE/CPP

What a dilemma we go

 

[Sirius Glass]

Jobo CPP2+ processor

 

[muhco3]

Jobo CPP2+ processor

I think you mean CPE2 Plus ? right ?

The issue with the CPE series is that they don't have digital display for the temp & no water circulation ( I don't know about the CPP series ) yet they expect you to play no less than 1700$ for new unit or you can gamble and get a 2nd hand one that may break any time and good luck in fixing it !

 

[pentaxuser]

muhco, based on your replies can I ask what direction your thinking on what to do is going? It might help the respondents to tailor their responses to your requirements

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

The issue with the CPE series is that they don't have digital display for the temp & no water circulation

They work extraordinarily well though, and have the capacity to develop an incredibly wide variety of films and papers, with very high consistency and reliability.
I can understand your concern if you are hoping for a machine that can be operated by minimally experienced staff, or if you want a machine that handles higher volumes, but if your goal is simply a robust and accurate machine that is new and can be maintained, CATlabs is there.

 

[alanrockwood]

...The Chromabox it seems like a clone of Phototherm sidekick ,and it seems it has a long way ahead of it in terms of production ...

Wow! Thanks for the tip about Chromabox. I had not heard about this project before. It sounds like a very exciting project.

 

[muhco3]

muhco, based on your replies can I ask what direction your thinking on what to do is going? It might help the respondents to tailor their responses to your requirements

pentaxuser

I'm looking for fully automatic film processor for home use

They work extraordinarily well though, and have the capacity to develop an incredibly wide variety of films and papers, with very high consistency and reliability.
I can understand your concern if you are hoping for a machine that can be operated by minimally experienced staff, or if you want a machine that handles higher volumes, but if your goal is simply a robust and accurate machine that is new and can be maintained, CATlabs is there.

Hey Matt ,
In-fact the CPE as a semi-automatic processor fit my needs in terms of the size of processed media , except it is not a fully automatic
I will use it by self at home for non commercial use , I did develop file manually before , but I'm looking for constancy and reliability as you know C41 & E6 are extremely sensitive to temperer changes and did use before the Nova FP processor (British company produced processors similar to Jobo without the rotation) and had horrible results as it had bad temperature control and took long time to heat up the chemicals (see picture below)

Regarding the Jobo CPE , I have read and seen reviews which is conflicting , some do agree with you in terms of quality and consistency and other don't and say it has poor temperature control and flimsy construction , I really like the Filmomat but due to lack of reviews i'm skeptical about it , though the owner of the project claims that he sold many units to US and Europe ( they even have facebook group and the reviews are positive and I'm not sure if they are fake !!)

You seem experienced in this field , so your opinion will be game changer for me matters

Wow! Thanks for the tip about Chromabox. I had not heard about this project before. It sounds like a very exciting project.

If I was you I would not get too excited as the project still needs time , he seems to be testing the first prototype and needs time go for full production if ever , maybe at least a year

 

[Sirius Glass]

Jobo CPP2+ processor

I think you mean CPE2 Plus ? right ?

The issue with the CPE series is that they don't have digital display for the temp & no water circulation ( I don't know about the CPP series ) yet they expect you to play no less than 1700$ for new unit or you can gamble and get a 2nd hand one that may break any time and good luck in fixing it !

CPP2+
If the Nova print processor would work on 120 volts I would buy and use that too.

 

[mshchem]

I have CPP and CPE units. If you intend on processing roll film I would get a CPE unit. In the end the cheapest and easy way to process color film is an immersion heater and your favorite type of tank.
I have accumulated a mountain of Jobo gear. It is more of a chore to set up etc. I used to develop C41 and E6 in a Paterson tank, using a bucket and aquarium heater.

 

[muhco3]

CPP2+
If the Nova print processor would work on 120 volts I would buy and use that too.

What is the difference between CPP2+ and CPP2 ? (I did not any info online )
The Nova need a step up transformer and frequency changer to work on 110 v

I have CPP and CPE units. If you intend on processing roll film I would get a CPE unit. In the end the cheapest and easy way to process color film is an immersion heater and your favorite type of tank.
I have accumulated a mountain of Jobo gear. It is more of a chore to set up etc. I used to develop C41 and E6 in a Paterson tank, using a bucket and aquarium heater.

So , in your opinion and from your experience , does it deserve paying around 1700$ ? and how good does it perform , and how it the temperature control ?

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I have a Jobo CPP-3 that works well, however these units were originally less expensive than they are today. Obviously not automatic but does have the advantage of fairly complete multi-format compatibility.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The CPP2 and CPE2 systems can be bought for less money than the CPP3. Several years ago I bought both the CPP2 and CPE2 systems on APUG without tanks for around $150US plus shipping each. I liked the CPP2 better and it handles the larger Expert Drums for sheet films so I sold the CPE2 for about what I paid for it.

 

[btaylor]

I don’t have a Jobo, probably never will, but over the decades I have not heard them referred to as flimsy. They seem to work very well for many, many years- and they are still supported with parts and service! I also read all the time about how consistent processing is in both home and professional environments. It seems like the Jobo and Phototherm (with service assured for a few years, and then?) would be the current, well known and reliable choices. But you already know that.
I have been following this thread with interest because I have always had an itch for such a device, but never acted on it.
I have been using a Unicolor film drum on a roller base for years for both C41 and B&W (and a few E6 runs). It is basically an insulated adjustable capacity drum. I don’t find it difficult to maintain a heated water bath for color. I have never had a processing consistency problem with this simple set up- so I could never justify the space and expense needed for a more automated system. The Chromabox looks very cool if it sees the light of day.

 

[mshchem]

What is the difference between CPP2+ and CPP2 ? (I did not any info online )
The Nova need a step up transformer and frequency changer to work on 110 v


So , in your opinion and from your experience , does it deserve paying around 1700$ ? and how good does it perform , and how it the temperature control ?

If you are not going to use Expert tanks no reason to buy a big processor, they are cool, but unnecessary for roll film.
The CPE2+ and the CPE3 do away with the mechanical "birds foot" reversing switch. This is nice. I bought my big CPP2 like Sirius for next to nothing and cleaned it up. These machines are ancient, think of a 1985 automobile. If you want a very reliable and reasonably new technology, and have 1700 USD I would highly recommend a new CPE3 with the lift.
The more mechanized machines are very dependent on support. The older machines require obsolete parts.
A Jobo manual "semi-automatic" processor like a CPE3 very easy to use, new and used tanks, as well as a dependable manufacturer in Germany and solid technical support in North America.
For E6 and C41 I have found that the temperature stability is quite good. My procedure is to fill the machine with warm water, insert the full bottles and let it warm up for an hour.
If you want to preheat your chemistry fast put your bottles in a bucket and add some hot water. This saves time be careful not to over warm.

 

[mshchem]

I don’t have a Jobo, probably never will, but over the decades I have not heard them referred to as flimsy. They seem to work very well for many, many years- and they are still supported with parts and service! I also read all the time about how consistent processing is in both home and professional environments. It seems like the Jobo and Phototherm (with service assured for a few years, and then?) would be the current, well known and reliable choices. But you already know that.
I have been following this thread with interest because I have always had an itch for such a device, but never acted on it.
I have been using a Unicolor film drum on a roller base for years for both C41 and B&W (and a few E6 runs). It is basically an insulated adjustable capacity drum. I don’t find it difficult to maintain a heated water bath for color. I have never had a processing consistency problem with this simple set up- so I could never justify the space and expense needed for a more automated system. The Chromabox looks very cool if it sees the light of day.

I have a friend who processed E6 in Unicolor drums for retail customers. He had a photo shop for over 30 years. He had a automated mounting system. The 1st developer time, temperature and replenishment is quite critical in reversal films. My friend always prewarmed the tank with a couple pre rinses. I have 5 different Jobo machines I have accumulated over the years. I bought a CPP3 in November because I wanted one. Every machine I have still works, but I have had help from CatLABS, and many parts are no longer available.

 

[btaylor]

My friend always prewarmed the tank with a couple pre rinses.

Yes, that’s the way they work- pre soak to get the tank up to temp, then process. Ridiculously simple.

 

[muhco3]

I have a Jobo CPP-3 that works well, however these units were originally less expensive than they are today. Obviously not automatic but does have the advantage of fairly complete multi-format compatibility.

The CPP2 and CPE2 systems can be bought for less money than the CPP3. Several years ago I bought both the CPP2 and CPE2 systems on APUG without tanks for around $150US plus shipping each. I liked the CPP2 better and it handles the larger Expert Drums for sheet films so I sold the CPE2 for about what I paid for it.

It seems the option are limited , either one of the Jobo family (new semi-automatic) or used fully/semi automatic one , or Phototherm , then finally Filmomat

I believe the prices nowadays are in steady increase in general ,though sometimes you can get luck and find a deal here and there

I don’t have a Jobo, probably never will, but over the decades I have not heard them referred to as flimsy. They seem to work very well for many, many years- and they are still supported with parts and service! I also read all the time about how consistent processing is in both home and professional environments. It seems like the Jobo and Phototherm (with service assured for a few years, and then?) would be the current, well known and reliable choices. But you already know that.
I have been following this thread with interest because I have always had an itch for such a device, but never acted on it.
I have been using a Unicolor film drum on a roller base for years for both C41 and B&W (and a few E6 runs). It is basically an insulated adjustable capacity drum. I don’t find it difficult to maintain a heated water bath for color. I have never had a processing consistency problem with this simple set up- so I could never justify the space and expense needed for a more automated system. The Chromabox looks very cool if it sees the light of day.

It is considered by some people who reviewed then in youtube as plasticy and this type of plastic the makes the tub is of the soft kind , i mean come on when some one pays over 1700$ for new unit he expects more rigid design , not if there are a lot of choices in the market , but just saying ...

If you are not going to use Expert tanks no reason to buy a big processor, they are cool, but unnecessary for roll film.
The CPE2+ and the CPE3 do away with the mechanical "birds foot" reversing switch. This is nice. I bought my big CPP2 like Sirius for next to nothing and cleaned it up. These machines are ancient, think of a 1985 automobile. If you want a very reliable and reasonably new technology, and have 1700 USD I would highly recommend a new CPE3 with the lift.
The more mechanized machines are very dependent on support. The older machines require obsolete parts.
A Jobo manual "semi-automatic" processor like a CPE3 very easy to use, new and used tanks, as well as a dependable manufacturer in Germany and solid technical support in North America.
For E6 and C41 I have found that the temperature stability is quite good. My procedure is to fill the machine with warm water, insert the full bottles and let it warm up for an hour.
If you want to preheat your chemistry fast put your bottles in a bucket and add some hot water. This saves time be careful not to over warm.

Probably I would not use the expert drums as the CPE can develop 4x5 sheets and some prints and don't remember the size but it is fine with me .

I have a friend who processed E6 in Unicolor drums for retail customers. He had a photo shop for over 30 years. He had a automated mounting system. The 1st developer time, temperature and replenishment is quite critical in reversal films. My friend always prewarmed the tank with a couple pre rinses. I have 5 different Jobo machines I have accumulated over the years. I bought a CPP3 in November because I wanted one. Every machine I have still works, but I have had help from CatLABS, and many parts are no longer available.

Well , I wanted to removed the thing that might increase the chance of failure in processing , it is sort of a luxury so to speak , I did develop E6 and c41 before in an old Kaiser tank and a thermometer with small ikea plastic box serving as heated water bath and it worked , what I want is a step up once and for all

Yes, that’s the way they work- pre soak to get the tank up to temp, then process. Ridiculously simple.

Indeed , but this is not what I'm looking for .

 

[foc]

My own personal preference would be(in this order and money no object):

1. Filmomat
2. Phototherm sk4
3. Jobo ATL 1000

 

[muhco3]

My own personal preference would be(in this order and money no object):

1. Filmomat
2. Phototherm sk4
3. Jobo ATL 1000

This what I'm considering the filmomat , I need to think about it because as you know it costs about 4000 euros
my concerns are : 1) will the owner of the project continue to support it in the future or he may quite and disappear and leave the costumers with a machine with no support or spare parts
2) there is no reviews either in the forums or youtube except one ,which seems sponsored

If I have found the Phototherm or Jobo ATL used for less than 1000$ I will buy it without hesitation at least it will last me sometime until maybe the price of new filmomat will drop due to mass production or other machine rise to the surface

 

[Adam Markiewicz]

Hi everyone!

From filmomat.eu website: "You can program almost any process you can possibly imagine into the Filmomat, as long as it doesn't exceed 10 steps and requires not more than 3 chemical baths..."
As far as I know it's not enough even for traditional black and white (developer, stop, fixer, photoflo). What about C-41? Even if you use kit with blix, three baths is not enough (dev, stop, blix, stab). You would need to skip stabilizing or do it manually. What if you wanted to use seperate bleach and fixer? Not an option. What if you wanted to use fuji hunt 7-bath kit for e-6. Not an option.
I'm not sure what is going on here, but this filmomat, with €4000 price tag, looks like a joke to me.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Wetting agent step should probably be done outside the machine and off the reel to avoid build up which can cause bubbles on the film.

 

[Adam Markiewicz]

Wetting agent step should probably be done outside the machine and off the reel to avoid build up which can cause bubbles on the film.

Ok. This makes my point on b&w and c41 with blix not valid, but still, any process that requires more than 3 baths (aside wetting agent) is out of option. I just find this 3-bath limitation too big of a deal.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Ok. This makes my point on b&w and c41 with blix not valid, but still, any process that requires more than 3 baths (aside wetting agent) is out of option. I just find this 3-bath limitation too big of a deal.

If running E6 I'd want the capability of running the full set of baths. I guess it depends on the expectations of the end user.