Regarding purchasing Automatic film processor

Adam Markiewicz said:

Hi everyone!

From filmomat.eu website: "You can program almost any process you can possibly imagine into the Filmomat, as long as it doesn't exceed 10 steps and requires not more than 3 chemical baths..."
As far as I know it's not enough even for traditional black and white (developer, stop, fixer, photoflo). What about C-41? Even if you use kit with blix, three baths is not enough (dev, stop, blix, stab). You would need to skip stabilizing or do it manually. What if you wanted to use seperate bleach and fixer? Not an option. What if you wanted to use fuji hunt 7-bath kit for e-6. Not an option.
I'm not sure what is going on here, but this filmomat, with €4000 price tag, looks like a joke to me.

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Tom Kershaw said:

Wetting agent step should probably be done outside the machine and off the reel to avoid build up which can cause bubbles on the film.

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Adam Markiewicz said:

Ok. This makes my point on b&w and c41 with blix not valid, but still, any process that requires more than 3 baths (aside wetting agent) is out of option. I just find this 3-bath limitation too big of a deal.

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Tom Kershaw said:

If running E6 I'd want the capability of running the full set of baths. I guess it depends on the expectations of the end user.

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Well ,for the B&W you can do three steps as Developer,stop bath then fixer in the machine then use wetting agent outside in the tank
as for the Color c-41 there is no stop bath there it is two step process Developer then Blix followed by stabilizer which should be outside the machine in the tank as it creates bubbles which can cause some issues with the processor according to the producer of Filmomat
There is a three bath chemicals for E6 , you can watch the videos in youtube that explains the Filmomat

I know it is so expensive , but as you know there is no reasonable choices out there , or you can get machines from the 80s or 90s as Phototherm or Jobo ATL and be under the mercy of Catlabs here in the US who play Monopoly in the prices taking advantage of shortage in spare parts and lack of expertise by others , not like if the Filmomat is any better as they expect you to pay 4000 euro for a home made machine that doen't even wash or dry the film .
Analog photography nowadays became an expensive hobby and I believe any one who is willing to continue with it has to pay the high prices , it is a luxury to get an automatic film processor for home use ,thus I'm trying to figure out what are the best options out there

Phototherms were being manufactured until 2018/9 - but a machine that new would be very expensive.

MattKing said:

Phototherms were being manufactured until 2018/9 - but a machine that new would be very expensive.

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I found one online for sale for over 4000$ , and they officially gone out of business and they are selling the last spare parts they have

It is sad the situation of film photography now , imagine if Kodak released a mini version of their "Mini Lab" for home use

With the Filmomat and C41 you just need, dev, bleach, fix. There is no need for a stop bath between dev and bleach nor is there a need for stabilizer as modern film doesn't need it. If you want to use stabilizer or a special rince then it could be done manually (I know why have a dog and bark yourself ! !)

I agree that 3 baths are very limiting but finding an automated film processor is very hard, especially one designed for home use.

mshchem said:

I used to develop C41 and E6 in a Paterson tank, using a bucket and aquarium heater.

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This is the non-automated and simplest way to do it.

foc said:

With the Filmomat and C41 you just need, dev, bleach, fix. There is no need for a stop bath between dev and bleach nor is there a need for stabilizer as modern film doesn't need it. If you want to use stabilizer or a special rince then it could be done manually (I know why have a dog and bark yourself ! !)

I agree that 3 baths are very limiting but finding an automated film processor is very hard, especially one designed for home use.


This is the non-automated and simplest way to do it.

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Do you have an experience with automatic processors ? if so please share it

For C-41 I use Kodak final rinse with distilled water as the last step after washing the film.

foc said:

With the Filmomat and C41 you just need, dev, bleach, fix. There is no need for a stop bath between dev and bleach nor is there a need for stabilizer as modern film doesn't need it. If you want to use stabilizer or a special rince then it could be done manually (I know why have a dog and bark yourself ! !)

I agree that 3 baths are very limiting but finding an automated film processor is very hard, especially one designed for home use.


This is the non-automated and simplest way to do it.

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I think that PE at one time stressed the need for a stop/rinse before bleach and had a very long and detailed post regarding stabilizer for C41 films. If I'm not mistaken, he also hinted that he used a pre rinse prior to developer.

I have the 6 bath kit for my JOBO CPE2+ for that very reason.

muhco3 said:

Do you have an experience with automatic processors ? if so please share it

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I have 41 years experience in commercial C41 processing, from using dip & dunk processors to leader card minilab automated processor machines.
All these machines were medium to high volume throughput with a replenished chemical system.
C41 is a standard process and once dev temp and times are adhered to, it is easy to achieve excellent results.
If you had the volume of films you could run a secondhand minilab C41 processor machine and you would buy one for less than the Filmomat ..............BUT remember these machines are old. I don't know of a new processor from Fuji or Noritsu in a long while.

Two years ago I was able to refurbish my own C41 Fuji processor. but parts can be hard to come by and can be expensive. Remember these are not mass-produced items.

foc said:

I don't know of a new processor from Fuji or Noritsu in a long while.

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I think Ag Photographic here in the UK may have purchased a new machine in recent years but I'm not completely sure.

I'd go for the Phototherm and have it fully refurbished by the same tech that did it for years under Phototherm (Jerry). The machine is pretty compact and industrial strength compared to the other options. If you plan to use it only for your own personal processing a fully refurbished unit will last practically forever. I bought a regular Sidekick 8 on eBay, then shipped it to Jerry who overhauled just about every component and made it a new Super Sidekick 8 - the cost to purchase and upgrade combined came to under $3K and the outer cover and chasis of the machine were pretty much the only original parts not replaced with new ones. And Jerry is amazing and can still be reached through the Phototherm web pages. Also, operationally, it doesn't get more automatic, programmable, simple, convenient, nor as precise than a Sidekick.

MFL

Michael Firstlight said:

I'd go for the Phototherm and have it fully refurbished by the same tech that did it for years under Phototherm (Jerry). The machine is pretty compact and industrial strength compared to the other options. If you plan to use it only for your own personal processing a fully refurbished unit will last practically forever. I bought a regular Sidekick 8 on eBay, then shipped it to Jerry who overhauled just about every component and made it a new Super Sidekick 8 - the cost to purchase and upgrade combined came to under $3K and the outer cover and chasis of the machine were pretty much the only original parts not replaced with new ones. And Jerry is amazing and can still be reached through the Phototherm web pages. Also, operationally, it doesn't get more automatic, programmable, simple, convenient, nor as precise than a Sidekick.

MFL

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Yea, this.

Tim Stapp said:

I think that PE at one time stressed the need for a stop/rinse before bleach and had a very long and detailed post regarding stabilizer for C41 films. If I'm not mistaken, he also hinted that he used a pre rinse prior to developer.

I have the 6 bath kit for my JOBO CPE2+ for that very reason.

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He recommended a stop bath when used with Blix kits. Some people, like myself, were getting weird stains on negatives. Using a stop bath after development, then a wash to keep the stop out of the blix fixed the issues I had with these weird stains.

Thank you very much every one for you help and participation in this thread ,
I will try to get used Jobo CPP/CPE processor (if I find something around 600$ or less ) then I will experiment with it and if it serves my needs then that is it if not then I have to buy the filmomat , in anyway I'll create a new thread sharing my experience .

Thank again and stay safe .

This article below talks about the Osiris F1
https://petapixel.com/2016/06/15/osiris-f1-affordable-automatic-film-processor/

I found it for sale here : (I don't know the website and never tried it before , just in case someone is interisted)

https://www.ebuy7.com/item/osiris-f...negative-film-processing-machine-523227033826

https://www.ebuy7.com/item/osiris-o...film-color-negative-reversal-set-543402078151

Hey I just saw this thread! I'm Andrew, the creator of Midtone Machines and the Chromabox-4 processor. Unfortunately you can't buy the Chromabox just yet but that's something I'm working hard to change within the year.

As some other people have pointed out it's quite similar to the Phototherm, not that I intended to copy the design but it's clear to me as I worked through the problem that a lot of the design choices that went into the Phototherm made sense for the job that it was trying to do, so I often ended up at a similar design myself. The Chromabox-4 works in generally the same way, however uses much more modern electronics to make it easier to use and more flexible, and I've spent some effort trying to get the cost down as low as I can without degrading the quality of the machine. It's capable of operating with up to 6 different chemicals simultaneously in addition to water for flushing, so perfectly capable of 6-bath E-6 processing or ECN-2 etc. (it can also run recipes of up to 50 steps, because storage space is practically free these days).

Here's a quick teaser video of the prototype running through 6 different 'chemicals':


My intention is to make the machine as user-serviceable as possible, to that end there's no high voltage inside the machine to make it safer to work on. I hope to grow the business but I don't imagine it ever becoming really large and so I don't see the point in trying to stop people from repairing or replacing components as they need to, I'll be releasing assembly diagrams, a service manual and a list of spare parts that can be ordered when I start to sell them.

If you have any questions please ask away!

AndrewBurns said:

My intention is to make the machine as user-serviceable as possible, to that end there's no high voltage inside the machine to make it safer to work on.

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So the whole unit runs from an external 12/24V power supply? Is the programming / electronics self-contained, i.e doesn't need connecting to a laptop etc?

Tom Kershaw said:

So the whole unit runs from an external 12/24V power supply? Is the programming / electronics self-contained, i.e doesn't need connecting to a laptop etc?

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Correct the unit runs from an external 24V supply, this adds cost but makes it safer for anybody to open up and work on if necessary. The rest of the electronics are self contained, no need to plug in a laptop. The user interface is a 480x320 graphic LCD screen and a 4-direction d-pad, it will come pre-loaded with some basic recipes an you can program your own into the machine using an interface that look a little like a spreadsheet.

AndrewBurns said:

it will come pre-loaded with some basic recipes an you can program your own into the machine using an interface that look a little like a spreadsheet.

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This sounds like an excellent option, i.e to provide the flexibility for a range of processes. I run a Jobo CPP-3 at the moment (up to 8x10 film in the Expert drums) but did have an ATL-2300 in the past. What are the format capacities of your Cromabox?

Tom Kershaw said:

This sounds like an excellent option, i.e to provide the flexibility for a range of processes. I run a Jobo CPP-3 at the moment (up to 8x10 film in the Expert drums) but did have an ATL-2300 in the past. What are the format capacities of your Cromabox?

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Currently the developing tank is only capable of 4 x Patterson type spools, this means you can process the following:

• 4 x 35mm rolls
• 2 x 110 rolls
• 6 x 4x5 sheets
• 4 x 5x7 sheets

Not large enough for 8x10 or larger prints (although in theory you could do small prints the same size as sheet film). You can use any existing Patterson compatible spools, there are tons of options out there. I'm a keen 4x5 shooter so I've ordered one 4x5 film holder which I'll try out in the prototype, once it arrives and I test it I'll make a blog post about it so that people know what options are available for them.

This is addressed to Andrew Burns.
A great project - I'm glad you posted here, because I hadn't taken the time earlier to go through your blog - which I would definitely recommend to others!
You should probably add your website address to your posts here by including it in a signature line.
I know your system isn't set up to do in-tank monitoring of temperatures, but have you been able to measure chemical input and output temperatures in order to check how steady the temperature is during processing?

MattKing said:

This is addressed to Andrew Burns.
A great project - I'm glad you posted here, because I hadn't taken the time earlier to go through your blog - which I would definitely recommend to others!
You should probably add your website address to your posts here by including it in a signature line.
I know your system isn't set up to do in-tank monitoring of temperatures, but have you been able to measure chemical input and output temperatures in order to check how steady the temperature is during processing?

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Thanks, I've added a signature now.

You're correct I don't directly monitor the temperature of the chemicals after they go into the developing tank however I do actively control the temperature of a silicone heat pad which is in contact with the bottom half of the tank. The idea being that the heat pad is only really there to prevent heat loss to the environment, so as long as the walls of the tank are maintained at the same temperature as the chemicals then there shouldn't be any heat transfer to the environment. Unfortunately during lockdown over here it's been impossible to get new hardware so I've had to make do with what I already had. My plan was/is to do some temperature logging of the fluids in the tank using thermocouples to ensure that the temperature remains constant, so far I've done some rudimentary measurement and the results are looking quite good.

I have a Phototherm SSK4 and second what was said about Jerry and refurbishment, etc. It's a great unit, and I'd recommend the SSK over anything mentioned here. There's a nice SK8 on Ebay right now for $2500 which is a fair price I'd say.

This interesting project is still moving along, and apparently getting much closer to shipping.
http://midtonemachines.com/news/new-body-shells/

Would be nice if this turns out to be the “better mousetrap”. Either better than a Jobo for the same money, or as capable as a Jobo for less money. Too early to predict, but Time will tell. I, for one, admire his vision and tenacity.

I would recommend the Jobo ATL-1000. It does 1 shot chemistry which is good for low volume processing. I wish I have enough film to process I would get a Noritsu processor for about the same price as the Jobo.

Real innovation in traditional photography is coming from individuals like Andrew Burns and others like Analogica (https://analogico.adel2000.it). I hope to have the opportunity to part with some of my money for one of their products.