Regarding Borax and Propylene Glycol

[relistan]

I've made a developer I've been using for most of the last 9 months and I like it a lot. It's a single stage PC mix in propylene glycol at the proportions that I like from long testing on my two baths. I mix it with a borax solution (à la Gainer) at time of use. I thinking to mix up a batch that has the borax in the propylene glycol with it and I think I can get enough into solution that this will work.

Question:
However, borax and propylene glycol also form chemical compounds when mixed together at high temperature, as is necessary when dissolving borax into PG. What I'm wondering is... am I likely to get the same development result from the borax dissolved into the PG as I do with borax in water, mixed separately? I have the feeling that I will not see the same results because those PG/Borax esters will not behave the same—because a lot more will form at those temperatures and in isolation than in 20C water.

Before I waste any more phenidone, anyone have any real knowledge to share here?

 

[Rudeofus]

I believe, that when @albada ran his MoCon tests, he found very different behavior of metaborate with or without PG, to the extent that he had to use different dev formulas with and without PG. He was able to dissolve metaborate in PG quite well, but took great care to remove the crystal water from the mix by steaming. AFAIK there is even more crystal water in Borax, so you may have to do the same to get rid of the crystal water.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Borate forms a strong complex with catechol but probably not with propane diol .I don't recall any problems with Mocon.
https://chemistry.stackexchange.com...glycol-enhance-the-acidity-of-orthoboric-acid

 

[albada]

In my Mocon developer, the addition of PG increased fog in some films when compared with the same formula without PG.
If you like your developer, you might consider dissolving the borax separately, along with any sulfite you use, because they will keep a long time. When it's time to develop film, mix the appropriate amounts of developer-solution and borax-sulfite-solution into your beaker, dilute, and proceed with developing the film.

Mark Overton

 

[relistan]

@Rudeofus @Alan Johnson @albada thanks for the info and the support.

Thanks for the suggestion Mark, about a second solution. Right now the borax I dissolve on its own right before use. When I used to use PC-Glycol a lot, I kept a stock of carbonate in water that I used to mix with it. I could do the same for the Borax. Interestingly this formula has no sulfite but does have a lot of ascorbic acid and it seems to produce a pretty nice grain with the films I've tried in it so far. So the second solution would have no sulfite. Hence my thinking that if I could get the borax into the Glycol with the other components, it would be a one-shot, one-stock developer.

Given what you guys said, and having thought about it, I think I'll first try to mix up a borax-glycol solution and use that in combo with the phenidone/ascorbic acid/glycol stock and see if I get the same results as before. That way I don't waste any more developing agents on the experiment, but if the Glycol and Borax do form unhelpful compounds, it will show up in that test I think. @Rudeofus I will pay attention to how the water interacts with the Glycol went attempting to dissolve the borax.

 

[mohmad khatab]

@Rudeofus @Alan Johnson @albada thanks for the info and the support.

Thanks for the suggestion Mark, about a second solution. Right now the borax I dissolve on its own right before use. When I used to use PC-Glycol a lot, I kept a stock of carbonate in water that I used to mix with it. I could do the same for the Borax. Interestingly this formula has no sulfite but does have a lot of ascorbic acid and it seems to produce a pretty nice grain with the films I've tried in it so far. So the second solution would have no sulfite. Hence my thinking that if I could get the borax into the Glycol with the other components, it would be a one-shot, one-stock developer.

Given what you guys said, and having thought about it, I think I'll first try to mix up a borax-glycol solution and use that in combo with the phenidone/ascorbic acid/glycol stock and see if I get the same results as before. That way I don't waste any more developing agents on the experiment, but if the Glycol and Borax do form unhelpful compounds, it will show up in that test I think. @Rudeofus I will pay attention to how the water interacts with the Glycol went attempting to dissolve the borax.

Actually, I had a good experience with PG110,,
I thawed the contents in the microwave for 20 seconds. No crystals were created at all, everything went great.
The problem was holding the glass jar out of the microwave. My fingers got stung by many stings, but then I learned that I had to put the glass jar on top of a flat ceramic plate so that I could take the dish out of the baker's glass jar that contains the contents of the solution I prepare it
This means that I will not have to hold the glass bowl while it is hot, but rather I will hold the earthenware saucer and usually it can be caught through a kitchen towel despite it being hot but not much.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

What I'm wondering is... am I likely to get the same development result from the borax dissolved into the PG as I do with borax in water, mixed separately? I have the feeling that I will not see the same results because those PG/Borax esters will not behave the same—because a lot more will form at those temperatures and in isolation than in 20C water.

It might not make much of a difference in the working solution as Borate esters are easily hydrolyzed.

 

[relistan]

It might not make much of a difference in the working solution as Borate esters are easily hydrolyzed.

Good to know! Thanks

 

[relistan]

A couple of shots with this developer. Times near XTOL. Delta 100 and Fotoimpex CHM 100 (Kentmere)