Reference print

I'm pretty new to wet printing and I'd like to acquire what I've seen referred to as a "reference print." As I understand it, this is just a well-done print developed to show a full tonal range as a guide to judge my own tones without the guesswork involved in looking at "prints" on a computer screen.

I have read some discussions of this and heard of highly regarded printers offering such things but now I cannot for the life of me locate those discussions or offers. Google hates me sometimes.

Can anyone help me out on this, with resources and or discussion of the type of print I'm looking for?

I'm of course developing my own style and taste, but it will be helpful to be able to hold in my hands a print that shows the full possibilities of b & w printing tones.

Thanks

Jeff Glass

It is important to see really good prints, but I question the value of relying on any one person's interpretation. Even if it is someone with a stellar reputation, you don't really know what that reputation is based upon, and different materials make a difference, as well as someone's individual preferences.

I don't know where you are, but if you are near a major city, you can go to galleries, museums, etc. and see a wide variety of prints. That way, you can develop a sense of the possible, without locking yourself into someone else's vision.

There was a recent thread that you might find useful: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

You could take part in the print exchanges I see going around. Most of the images I see represented on line seem too contrasty to me. I think it is what you have to do to view a print with a monitor.

A lot of photographers refer to a reference print as 'Artist Proof'. If you Google that it might come up with something of use?

Fred Picker used to promote 'reference prints', and actually offered them for sale through his Zone VI catalog. I haven't seen any other commercial offers of reference prints.

I have been inspired to improve my printing by looking at excellent prints made by others. Visiting galleries and shows is one good approach. I've been involved in some 'portfolio' groups through PSA for many years in which a small group of people share prints on a rotating basis for review and comment - this serves the same basic function.

I am guessing there are a lot of people here willing to send a print for the cost of shipping. You could get a whole box of prints considered full tonal range by various people.

I have a few unsigned A. Adams prints - ones made by his assistants and sold at the Best Gallery as Yosemite souvenirs.

The one of Vernal Falls makes an excellent reference print.

I don't know if these are still sold by Best, but I do know they come up on ebay from time to time.

http://www.lesmcleanphotography.com/sales.php

Les McLean has what he calls "Example Prints to be used as a guide to what a fine print should contain in the way of contrast and tonality. They are made on 8” x 10” Ilford Warmtone or Ilford Multigrade IV fibre paper, archivally processed but not selenium toned, (and are) unmounted."

The suggestions to view as many prints as you can at galleries and museums is excellent, as well as trying to obtain prints from good printers.

Jeff:

When I started with APUG, I hadn't been in the darkroom regularly for quite a while, and as a result was really "rusty" when it came to evaluating my prints. Donald Miller, who used to post here regularly, posted an offer in the classifieds for a small number of such reference prints at a price that was a fair bit lower than his usual print price, and I was lucky enough to obtain one of those prints from him.

His reference prints are/were contact printed on AZO, using Amidol, and he made great use of his materials, so the range of tones and the micro contrast is quite spectacular.

In my case, the reference print helps remind me of what I am looking for when I evaluate work or test prints. As I've gotten back in to doing this more regularly, I can now more easily get my prints to be more like I want them to be, and Donald's print serves as an excellent target or visual check against my work.

It probably helps to have a reference print that you like, and was printed by another printer, if only to serve as a good comparison against your own work. I don't know whether Donald's reference print is ideal for a new printer though - the well used AZO/Amidol pairing might be a bit intimidating for anyone who is just starting out.

I don't think you posted where in the world you are located. There may very well be an APUGer or two who lives or works nearby, and would be happy to both share a work print and provide some constructive advice about your printing.

Matt

Yes, thanks all of you for your responses. Les Mclean sent me a pm about his example prints and I will be getting one of those and I'll look in the classifieds for a Donald Miller offer.

@MattKing: yep, I actually want the reference to be exquisite and even intimidating as I really want to know what is possible with the medium. I'm not real interested in settling for mediocre, regardless of how long it takes me to escape it.

I really like the idea of the "print exchange" and I want to follow up on that. Maybe APUG has something going like that? I'll look

And of course visiting galleries, museums and the like is something I continue to do, but what I want is something I can hold in my hand and tack to the wall of my darkroom/studio to hold my prints against for comparison.

@Bowzart, that thread was enjoyable, and a good reminder to keep it simple, though, I may have moved a bit beyond that most basic level.

I'm still interested in what others think of this practice and about potential offers from highly regarded printers.

Thanks,
Jeff Glass
Austin, Texas

jglass said:

...I really like the idea of the "print exchange" and I want to follow up on that. Maybe APUG has something going like that?...

Click to expand...

Art runs the Blind Print Exchange...
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

and I run the Group Print Exchange...
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The next group print exchange will be starting in another couple of months. Just keep an eye out for the next sign-up thread. There are other exchanges going on as well, just look under the Member Organized Functions..
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Jeff:

I may have been a little unclear. Two prints can be very fine, but still be very different - there is no single definition of what constitutes an excellent print.

An Azo/Amidol pairing has particular attributes (which are quite desirable), but there is an infinite variety of routes to the goal of a "fine" print. If the routes that you choose to take are sufficiently different from those where Azo/Amidol are at their best (a contact print from a large format negative exposed and developed with Azo in mind), you may find that the Azo/Amidol reference print isn't particularly appropriate.

The type of image itself is also quite important. The Donald Miller print I have would be a poor reference print to use if, for example, I was printing something like one of Ian Leake's nudes (ignoring for a moment the fact that Ian prefers to use different materials than I do).

As an example, if you shoot medium format, and prefer images with higher contrast, and a narrower range of tones, you may want to seek out a reference print that has those characteristics.

I see now from your signature that you are in Austin Texas. There are a number of APUG members in Texas, and I expect that some of them are probably near Austin. I'd suggest trying to contact some of them, to see if you can see some examples of their photography that interest you, and possibly obtain from them an appropriate print or two.

Matt

MattKing said:

... there is no single definition of what constitutes an excellent print.

Click to expand...

Thank you. I'm glad you said that.

MattKing said:

I see now from your signature that you are in Austin Texas. There are a number of APUG members in Texas, and I expect that some of them are probably near Austin. I'd suggest trying to contact some of them, to see if you can see some examples of their photography that interest you, and possibly obtain from them an appropriate print or two.
Matt

Click to expand...

Also, with the current revival of historic processes, it is appropriate to note that the range of results that could be called "fine prints" is nothing, if not VAST. It's very important to define what you consider to be a fine print, THEN find something that you feel fits that definition - for you.

I believe that the Gernsheim collection is at UT. Why not look there? None of it will look like Les McLean, or Ansel Adams. That's not to say their prints are not fine. It is to say that it's a big world.

I went through SF State in the 60's, and when we talked about a "fine print", believe me, we KNEW what that is. However, years have gone by, and my horizons have grown to include a lot more possibilities. I'm not sure I know any more what's a fine print. There is no firm definition.

Travis: thanks, I'll be watching for the blind and group exchanges, sound like an excellent place to get prints and good learning experiences.

Matt and Bowzart: I understand your points, guys, really. I'm not looking for something that will ultimately define, in a single image, a fine print. I'm just looking for references to hold in my hand, primarily concerned with tonal range. That's all I'm after. Your help is appreciated.

jglass said:

Matt and Bowzart: I understand your points, guys, really. I'm not looking for something that will ultimately define, in a single image, a fine print. I'm just looking for references to hold in my hand, primarily concerned with tonal range. That's all I'm after. Your help is appreciated.

Click to expand...

OK. I'm sure you'll get that with what's on its way to you.