reduced contrast developers for continuous agitation?

alanrockwood · May 26, 2009

Are there any developers that can provide relatively low contrast in a rotary processor?

Also, how about developers that can to this at a temperature 75 F?

Thanks.

Ian Grant · May 26, 2009

You could use a developers like ID-3 which is a Metol based Soft working developer, Ilford used to recommend a filmdevelopment time of approx 12 minutes @ 20°C (68°F) or 9 minutes @ 24°C (75°F). Kodak's equivalent developer was D165.

If you want even lower contrast use POTA. However I'd be inclined to use something like Rodinal diluted 1+100, that's sufficient to reduce the contrast of most regular films.

Ian

dancqu · May 26, 2009

alanrockwood said:
Are there any developers that can provide relatively low
contrast in a rotary processor? Also, how about developers
that can to this at a temperature 75 F? Thanks.

What you need is a developer of low energy. If rotary
with it's constant agitation is your method then high
dilution is not possible.

A home brew which would likely work well could be
compounded using metol plus a little sulfite and
powered by bicarbonate of soda.

A usual off the shelf might also work well if
loaded with one of the chemicals used in
tropical developers. Dan

Lowell Huff · May 26, 2009

For rotary processors, we recommend our F 76plus Developer @ 1+14 dilution @ 75ºf. To lower the contrast, you can increase the dilution
(1+19) or lower the temperature to 70º.

Thomas Bertilsson · May 26, 2009

Pyrocat is great for rotary development. You have to adjust your times from tank processing, obviously.

If you want to try Pyrocat, I have a dry kit from the Photographer's Formulary that I can send you (if you're in the US). I won't use it.

- Thomas

ic-racer · May 26, 2009

I have done a lot of film/developer testing using a rotary processing paradigme and I would agree that dilute (1:100) Rodinal can do this. There, of course, is a trick to getting the film bathed with 10cc of 1:100 Rodinal in a limited tank volume. (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=23322)

BobNewYork · May 26, 2009

I've successfully used Rodinal 1:150 with Tech Pan 4x5 - admittedly not with rotary processing; but if it works well with Tech Pan it should be fine as a controlled contrast developer with "ordinary" film.

Bob H

Thomas Bertilsson · May 26, 2009

ic-racer, can you post some of your attachments here, for us that are not members of that forum? (please)

I'd like to see your results as I had no luck at all with Rodinal and rotary.

ic-racer · May 26, 2009

Thomas Bertilsson said:
ic-racer, can you post some of your attachments here, for us that are not members of that forum? (please)

I'd like to see your results as I had no luck at all with Rodinal and rotary.

Sorry, I did not realize you have to be a member to see the images.

Here is the processing setup:

Here I am measuring out the Rodinal:

Here is a screenshot of the Rodinal worksheet that does all the calculations for the dilutions and timing:

ic-racer · May 26, 2009

Scan of a projection print on multigrade paper. Film is a very slow 35mm Tech Pan-like film, with conventional developers the film is very contrasty. (this was Jobo rotary processed with 1:100 Rodinal, 10cc per roll with 8 changes of developer).

Evenness of the Rotary processed dilute Rodinal is very good (per other tests). As a reality check I did do a comparison with some Technidol and the same Tech Pan-like film and, as expected, the rotary-processed negatives were unusable due to extreme unevenness of development.

Ian Grant · May 27, 2009

Can't see why on earth you need to do all those changes of developer, seems rather long winded and much more prone to problems. I've processed 5"x4" Technical pan in a Jobo tank at 1+200 and it's far easier, my tanks are pre-Rotary Jobo 2000 series but there's no reason you can't use yours the same way, upright with the full volume of developer covering the film, in my case that's a litre of developer per reel (6 sheets of 5x4).

Ian

mikebarger · May 27, 2009

I use the same developers, HC110 and 510 pyro, for all my film. I generally use a semi stand for 120 Tri-x 400 and rotary processing for 4x5 HP-5.

The only difference is I've tested for the correct development time for each process to place zone VIII on the negative as a zone VIII on the print.

I'm not sure why you'd need a different developer for each type of processing, at least not for 510 pyro and HC110.

Mike

ic-racer · May 27, 2009

Ian Grant said:
Can't see why on earth you need to do all those changes of developer,

No one NEEDS to do 1:100, but thats the way I do it. Since the tank is on a lift, the number of fluid changes is pretty irrelevant.

Thomas Bertilsson · May 27, 2009

The problem I've had with Rodinal in rotary processing is that I get negatives that are over-developed with very high contrast, even at short developing times. It is a very powerful developer that rewards changes in agitation, and I suspect that with the extremely vigorous agitation that rotary processing gives, you'd have to exhaust the Rodinal in order to give any control.
I could be wrong, but I tried many dilutions, couldn't get it to work. So I tried Pyrocat and HC-110. Much better.
Anyway, I don't do rotary development anymore as I gave up sheets, and the results I get with rolls in stainless steel daylight tanks and manual agitation are much more to my liking. Plus the control I get with agitation makes it a more useful tool for the way I shoot.

Thanks to ic-racer for posting those items.

- Thomas

mikebarger said:
I use the same developers, HC110 and 510 pyro, for all my film. I generally use a semi stand for 120 Tri-x 400 and rotary processing for 4x5 HP-5.

The only difference is I've tested for the correct development time for each process to place zone VIII on the negative as a zone VIII on the print.

I'm not sure why you'd need a different developer for each type of processing, at least not for 510 pyro and HC110.

Mike

ic-racer · May 27, 2009

Thomas Bertilsson said:
The problem I've had with Rodinal in rotary processing is that I get negatives that are over-developed with very high contrast,

Just to let you know, I also tried cooling to 15C to get longer times with less-concentrated Rodinal. It works, but with a 22C room temp and 17C tap water, I had to use 6 bottles of slush in the Jobo. The slush bottles needed to be re-filled about every 5 minutes and it took about 20 minutes to cool all the way down. I wound up using all the ice from our kitchen ice-maker just to get down to 15C.

Also, in the mulit-change paradigme (at 24C) there is more going on than just diluting the developer. Due to the filling/emptying time, a 7 min run is really 3 minutes of film-developer contact. So, much of the time the film is wet with developer but not submerged. I was setting up some experiments to extend the no-contact phase to see what would happen, but have not done it yet.

Kirk Keyes · May 27, 2009

alanrockwood said:
Are there any developers that can provide relatively low contrast in a rotary processor?

Also, how about developers that can to this at a temperature 75 F?

Thanks.

I use a Jobo at 75F and with Acros and XTOL 1:1 I can get a CI that's less than 0.40 without excessively short times.

What CI are you looking for and with which film?

Thomas - what dilution were you using for Rodinal, how many sheets in the drum, and what volume of developer?

I use 1L of developer pretty much all the time and I've yet to burn a motor out. And always pick the lift up with the end of the support bars, not the handle alone...

Mahler_one · May 27, 2009

Interesting about the 1L of developer Kirk....I assume you are using the expert tanks, and not one of the 2000 series tanks...how many sheets would you estimate you have developed in the Jobo expert tanks without any problems using the 1 L of developer ....many of us have been warned to use only about 500 cc even though we "help" the lift with our hands...the issue might not be the lift, but the motor turning the heavier tank.

I am learning much from this thread. Is Kodak Tech Pan still available? I thought not.

Kirk Keyes · May 28, 2009

I use a Jobo 3010 Expert drum.

I'm not sure about the total number of sheets, but I've "standardized" on 1L for about 15 years expect for a short period when I was using PMK and I tried using 1500 ml, but there was noticable drag on the motor then. So I went back to 1000 ml (and I've added a nitrogen bath to eliminate arial oxidation of pyro developers) and I use a speed setting of "4". But I guess it's in excess of 300 batches/runs, and I try to have 10 sheets in the drum so that I can keep the sq. inches of film to volume of developer constant.

Make sure you have the water level high to help "float" the drum, but not too high that it lifts off the rollers.

I've heard the warnings too, but my Jobo doesn't seem to mind. Jobo says the maximum capacity of the drum is 1000 ml.
http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/us_analog/instructions/instructions_misc_expert_drums.htm

Kirk

Thomas Bertilsson · May 28, 2009

Kirk,

500ml (that's all I can get in there before it starts to leak back out), Rodinal 1+100 or 1+200 at 70*F.
Two 5x7 or four 4x5 sheets at a time or less.

- Thomas

Kirk Keyes said:
I use a Jobo at 75F and with Acros and XTOL 1:1 I can get a CI that's less than 0.40 without excessively short times.

What CI are you looking for and with which film?

Thomas - what dilution were you using for Rodinal, how many sheets in the drum, and what volume of developer?

I use 1L of developer pretty much all the time and I've yet to burn a motor out. And always pick the lift up with the end of the support bars, not the handle alone...

reduced contrast developers for continuous agitation?

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