redeving polaroid in pyro

gwatson · Sep 19, 2006

Hi all. Not sure where to put this one, but here's as good as any, I guess.

I want to over-egg a couple of polaroid 55 negs I have for alt process. I am just about to nuke them in farmer's and redev in pyro, but have a couple of questions I hope someone can help me with. My plan:
1: Soak negs for 5 mins in water in normal light conditions.
2: Nuke said negs back to the stone age.
3: Rinse.
4: Redev in Pyro for normal dev time.
5: Rinse in water, and dry.

Questions:

1: Has anyone tried this and have had, a) unmitigated success, b) humiliating disaster?
2: How much increase in contrast/density will normal dev time give me?
3. What is normal dev time for p55 in Pyro?
4. Is there anything else I should be doing?

All comments, suggestions welcome.

Many thanks.

Geoff

removed account4 · Sep 19, 2006

hi geoff

never done it before, but insteat of developing then twice and using farmers reducer, why don't you just expose them and dn't process them - remove the film in the dark and process them the first time in pyro?
(the folks at polaroid sort of suggest that the film is panatomic x )

have fun

john

jimgalli · Sep 19, 2006

Hi Geoff. gainer is who you want to ask even if you have to hunt him down. I've not done it either..but..you do know that the farmers removes every bit of silver right. So re-dev in Pyro (I'm assuming pmk) will only give you the density of the stain. I think that's right. Whatever you do, don't start with the important neg. Make some facsimile's. I'm curious now so I'll stay tuned and hope Gadget Gainer will help you out.

Kirk Gittings · Sep 19, 2006

I believe Sandy King has a fair amount of experience with bleaching and then redeveloping with pyro. Try him for advice. Though his experience may not be with with Type 55.

Recent discussions with Polaroid suggest it is no longer Panatomic-X in Type 55, but a Fuji substitute.

removed account4 · Sep 20, 2006

Kirk Gittings said:
Recent discussions with Polaroid suggest it is no longer Panatomic-X in Type 55, but a Fuji substitute.

hi kirk

good to know ..
i spoke with someone at polaroid a few (maybe 8?) months ago and she said pan-x, but maybe she was working on olde information ..

john

Ole · Sep 20, 2006

It should work. I've done it before - but don't use Farmer's!

Use a rehalogenising bleach, like pot ferri with potassium bromide. Wash well, and redevelop in Pyro/soda. That's a "short use developer" - mix a teaspoon of pyro in 250ml water, a teaspoon of soda in another 250ml water, and mix immediately before use. It goes murky brown and dies within five minutes, but that is more than sufficient for full development with lots and lots of stain.

gwatson · Sep 20, 2006

Many thanks guys. Great replies. I'll do a bit more digging and update the thread.

Thanks again.

Geoff

gwatson · Sep 20, 2006

OK. I've done a bit of digging and, based on that and what you guys have told me, this is my revised game plan:

1: Soak negs in water for 5 mins.
2: Bleach neg back to base in pot ferri/pot bromide/water (2:1:some). NOT farmer's (thanks chaps)
3: Expose to strong light source (not quite sure what this achieves, but have seen it referenced in a couple of sources, and can't see the harm. Anyone any ideas?)
4: Wash.
5: Redev in PMK (Ole: I'm not ignoring the pyro/soda solution - can't get pyro before weekend. Will try as soon as I can. Sounds like an interesting mix.)

I found a thread by Gainer on the AZO forum. "...There's no need to worry about development times or agitation, as it should go to completion. There is, of course, only enough silver bromide left to restore the original silver image, and once that is done the staining stops because the developer needs the local products of reduction to form the mordant to fix the stain. Consequently, there is no danger of overdeveloping, and streaking or bromide drag can only occur if development is too short."

So, does this sound reasonable? Please let me know if you see any errors, and I'll let you know the outcome.

Many thanks

Geoff

Ole · Sep 20, 2006

That sounds very reasonable.
The reason for exposing the film to strong light is to make sure that you have exposed the new silver halide that's been formed in the bleaching. Whether you wash before, after or during reexposure doesn't matter at all. You can even do the reexposure during developing, but at the risk of streaking/mottled exposure.

Wash well after developing. Theoretically there should be no need for fixing after redeveloping, but most people feel more comfortable with a fix...

Robert Hall · Sep 20, 2006

Heat the redev pmk to at least 80F, it will help with the density.

gwatson · Sep 20, 2006

Thanks Ole/Robert.

I figured on no fix. Since I have no commercial fix, would a minute or two in 5% hypo do the trick?

Geoff

raucousimages · Sep 20, 2006

What do you hope to achieve by doing this? I have never re-developed a neg, what is the reason and what are the results like?

gwatson · Sep 20, 2006

Most alt process techniques are inherently soft (argyrotype typically a grade 0). Polaroid film cannot be over dev'ed and thus the neg is generally too soft to be suitable. Redev'ing (or indeed just over dev'ng) in pyro increases the density and contrast of the film. The results: I'll let you know.

Geoff

Robert Hall · Sep 21, 2006

gwatson said:
Thanks Ole/Robert.

I figured on no fix. Since I have no commercial fix, would a minute or two in 5% hypo do the trick?

Geoff

5 minutes in plain Hypo and refix after final redev.

Wash the bleach -completely- from the neg each time you redev as well.

gwatson · Sep 21, 2006

Thanks Robert.

Geoff

gwatson · Sep 22, 2006

Sorry, me again. So I made a mistake: I thought I had some pot bromide, but don't. Can anyone see any problems if I bleach in just pot ferri? Does the pot bromide just inhibit the bleaching action?

Cheers

Geoff

Robert Hall · Sep 22, 2006

yes, if you have no bromide, you wont re-halogenate the silver and your redev wont work. The bleach will just bleach the image.

Have to have the bromide.

gwatson · Sep 22, 2006

I'm determined to arse this up, aren't I. Thanks again Robert.

Geoff

gwatson · Sep 25, 2006

Just a quick word of thanks to all who helped. Everything went swimmingly. I redeved 3 negs in the end and they are now much more suitable for argyrotype. Thanks all.

Geoff

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