Redevelop after bleaching process

I know there are already alot of thread regarding bleaching process but I may ask about my trouble here..

To test bleaching and re-developing process I used the Moersch bleach stock and my own diluted ferricyanide stock.

paper : foma glossy / matt fiber base warm tone
tested with the one developed by dektol and lith printing

1.
I've observed those bleach chemical bleach my prints. Moersch concentrated stock seems pretty strong and with little dilution it bleached the print completely white. Ferrycianide(+water dilution) seem work slower and in the end it does bleach job as well. As I know the bleached part could be re-developed by developer again, so I rinsed bleached prints then tried to redeveloped it. But somehow it doesn't seem developing at all (or very little) and also I observed opposite case : high density area(very black) still remains some stains even though I tried with highly concentrated bleach stock.

I have no idea why I can't redevelop my bleached prints. It wasn't fixated yet, so my work procedure was : bleach > rinse > develop step, and even after a quite long time in the re-developer bath, the bleached area doesn't seem changed at all. What would be the causes?
1) too much bleach would change the grain structure so anyway it wouldn't allow to recover image by redeveloping?
2) probably there might be still some ferrycianide concentrates remains in the paper, so "much much" harder rinse required before redeveloping?

2.
I have additional questions regarding the situation..
1) after bleached the paper appears complete white base though it is branded as warm tone paper..Is it normal? Is there any special bleaching technique or material depending on paper type(warm/normal/glossy/matt)?
2) In case that I do bleach and redevelop my print, can I use different developer for re-developing? Is there anybody has a similar experience? Initially I wanted to try this out(re-develop) that's why I chose different fb prints for testing.(though it turned out I failed re-developing regardlessly whatever the developer I used)
3) This might be the last question and ultimately I wanted to try out through breaching : Tho different areas that distinctively has a different level of grain density(the situation such as test strip print in different exposing time) and thatmakes pretty obvious borderline, would it be possible to blur...or mix or make somehow look natural so in the end they look more natural or gradient fade. I know even if it is possible probably this would be the job of conservator level. But would be good to know if it is possible or not, even though it would require extreme carefulness or expert experiences.. For example I noticed the bleaching tend to apply more low density area than darker area, so actually this would make more contrasty looks between two different density areas.

YJL said:

Ferrycianide(+water dilution) seem work slower and in the end it does bleach job as well. As I know the bleached part could be re-developed by developer again, so I rinsed bleached prints then tried to redeveloped it. But somehow it doesn't seem developing at all (or very little)

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You need to use rehalogenating bleach such as ferricyanide + potassium bromide to redevelop fully. Ferricyanide alone will give you a lighter print when redeveloped. And you need to light fog the bleached print before it is redeveloped unless your redeveloper is a fogging developer like dithionite.

Thanks to your explanation. Forgive me my lack of knowledge, could you please explain about below parts? I couldn't really understood...do I need fogging to redevelop?

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:

You need to use rehalogenating bleach such as ferricyanide + potassium bromide to redevelop fully. Ferricyanide alone will give you a lighter print when redeveloped. And you need to light fog the bleached print before it is redeveloped unless your redeveloper is a fogging developer like dithionite.

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1. If you use a ferricyanide bleach then you'll get a lighter image after redeveloping the bleached print.
2. If you use a ferricyanide bleach that also has potassium bromide in it, then you'll get back the original image (more or less) after redeveloping the bleached print.
3. In both cases you need to expose the bleached print to light before you redevelop it.Otherwise you will not get the original image back.

[Edit: I assumed you did all the steps you mentioned in OP under red safe light. OTOH if you did the bleaching in day light, then you need not expose the bleached print to light after bleaching.]

Hope this helps.

Ferricyanide will oxidize Silver and form silver ions, but these silver ions need a counter anion to form a salt. This counter ions could be - for lack of anything else - hydroxide. While Silver Hydroxide is not very soluble, it can wash out. If you add Potassium Bromide to your bleach, Silver Bromide will form, which is very insoluble.

The effect you observed in (1) is most prominent in the high density areas. I would therefore think, that removal of Silver Hydroxide is not your problem, this would much more affect low density areas. Raghu brought up a second point: exposure. You need to turn the light on during redevelopment.

To your second question:

1. Warm tone can come from a yellowish paper base, but it often comes from extremely small silver grains which look brown. The size of silver grains can be somewhat influenced by development procedure and choice of developer. Large grains will look neutral/blue, very fine grains will look yellow/brown.
2. You have total liberty with regard to developer choice for second development. You can even use special fogging developers such as Sodium Dithionite. Since I assume you fixed your print at some point before bleaching, there are no issues with "fogging".
3. There are different bleaches, some boost contrast, others lower it, yet other decrease it. There are formulas for each of these, sometimes consisting of rather toxic or otherwise unpleasant ingredients. Since there was no such thing as digital manipulation many decades ago, dark room workers had strong incentive to come up with these special bleaches.

YJL said:

I have no idea why I can't redevelop my bleached prints. It wasn't fixated yet

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Try a different approach: develop, fix, turn on lights, wash for about 10 minutes to remove any fixer from the paper, and then proceed with bleach and redevelop as you intended. Bleaching before fixing is possible, but not a logical processing order for what you're trying to do and is likely to result in numerous problems.

Many many thanks for the suggestions and the explanations. It helps alot, and I will update soon after I try it.

I did bleaching and redeveloping process with fully light on. So I couldn't understand why Raghu mentioning of fogging. When I follow up the answers I think probably fixing/rinsing step might be the causes. I will try again and get back to report!

YJL said:

Many many thanks for the suggestions and the explanations. It helps alot, and I will update soon after I try it.

I did bleaching and redeveloping process with fully light on.

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This sounds like the same process you used before but now with the light on. I hope this works but it might have been sensible to try Koraks suggestion as we know that works. If that sequence doesn't work then it has to be something about your process/chemicals, doesn't it

pentaxuser

Hello again,

I tried again bleach/redeveloping process, some I tried to see with selenium, too.

This time I used ferricyanide bleach that also has potassium bromide in it, which is MOERSCH bleaching potassium hexacyanoferrate / bromide concentrate. I diluted it 1:40. I thought this is highly diluted enough but I could see bleaching effect pretty quickly.

All the bleaching/re-developing/fixing happened with the light on. I could re-develop bleached photographs this time but not fully. It never reached complete dark shadow black recovered so its dynamic range wasn't fully recovered. So image was kinda very flat, I wonder why. According to what I learned so far, maybe my bleaching chemical contains too much ferricyanide over potassium bromide, probably I need to increase the ratio of potassium bromide?

Also I have tried bleach / selenium toning, just wondered what is proper processing order if it exists? I noticed if I do bleach first and selenium later, it seems more expectable but I found more hard to bleach in case of selenium first and bleaching later.(still it bleaches but very subtle)

YJL said:

I could re-develop bleached photographs this time but not fully.

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Just checking: you first developed, then fixed, then washed for a few minutes, and then bleached, right? I do this a lot and no loss of density occurs IF you wash properly between fix and bleach.

Re: selenium: whatever order you like. But be sure to wash fairly thoroughly between bleach and selenium, as selenium toner also contains fixer. It's correct the image bleaches less readily after selenium as the selenium inhibits bleaching. You also cannot fully bleach a selenium toner print.

Thank you Sir, this is very helpful!

Yes I developed, fixed, rinsed, bleached, rinsed, fixed, final rinsed.

Do you say there is no density changes at all even I bleach completely? Because once I bleached whole picture so the paper looked almost white with a bit of stains. Then I developed. This one I I couldn't recover original picture. In this case also would you say there shouldn't be density changes?

Thank you for the information about selenium. One more question, have you ever tried to do bleach, seleinum tones sequence multiple times? As selenium toning has different colour stage I just wondering if I can achieve some colours(more than one tone) by this repetitive process.

koraks said:

Just checking: you first developed, then fixed, then washed for a few minutes, and then bleached, right? I do this a lot and no loss of density occurs IF you wash properly between fix and bleach.

Re: selenium: whatever order you like. But be sure to wash fairly thoroughly between bleach and selenium, as selenium toner also contains fixer. It's correct the image bleaches less readily after selenium as the selenium inhibits bleaching. You also cannot fully bleach a selenium toner print.

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You mention "rinsing", but if that's what you mean - a quick wash of perhaps half a minute or so, then that's your problem. After fixing, wash for at least 5-10 minutes, changing the water a few times every 1-2 minutes (running water is ok too, but wasteful).

YJL said:

have you ever tried to do bleach, seleinum tones sequence multiple times?

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No, I haven't, but I don't expect it will do anything that a single selenium bath won't do.
Btw, it's not yet clear to me what you intend with the bleach-redevelop routine. Are you "redeveloping" in sepia toner, or a warm tone developer? What is it that you're trying to achieve?

Okay, if I understood you correctly..that remained bleach chemical could restrict the (re)developer, right?

Well basically it is not for only one reason or aiming certain target, but there are some cases that I imagined to apply these(bleaching or selenium / re-developing)

For instance, I often do lith print or other alternative printing in extreme conditions. In some cases I fail to control chemical ratio or its lifespan, the result could be very foggy or unwanted level(or color). I was wondering if I could apply those failed ones with selenium (to increase contrast, more exactly darker area more darker) OR bleaching(to recover fogged print) until dynamic range become acceptable. If it is controllable I could apply both in same print as well.

Another case is how much in detail I could bleach partially. I have some print that I also failed to control dodging or recharging chemical, in the end it appears on the print as pretty distinct gradation.(complete dark area just next to normal density) Thus I started to research of the case how to smoothen this boundary areas where showing obvious density differences.(like when you print test strip with splitting exposing time. Can I make this discrete steps into smooth gradation?)

I know that I trace not that usual things, and try to apply these with not a normal situation. Most case would be of course much easier reprint, but l want to learn as well. I already noticed that some toned prints lost its colour while bleaching process. But some are not or recoverable by re-developing. If you have any experiences or idea would be appreciated. Thank you!

koraks said:

You mention "rinsing", but if that's what you mean - a quick wash of perhaps half a minute or so, then that's your problem. After fixing, wash for at least 5-10 minutes, changing the water a few times every 1-2 minutes (running water is ok too, but wasteful).

No, I haven't, but I don't expect it will do anything that a single selenium bath won't do.
Btw, it's not yet clear to me what you intend with the bleach-redevelop routine. Are you "redeveloping" in sepia toner, or a warm tone developer? What is it that you're trying to achieve?

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If there are traces of fixer left in the paper when you put it in the ferricyanide/bromide bleach, some of the bleaching will be permanent, because the fixer will fix (i.e., remove) some of the silver bromide created by the bleach. (In fact, ferricyanide+potassium bromide+fixer is also known as Farmer's reducer, which is a non-reversible bleach.)

You want to wash your print very thoroughly before bleaching.

I see! Now I understand why Farmer's reducer is a non-reversible bleach.
I was focusing more to rinse throughly rinse 'after bleaching' stage, but I think indeed 'after first fix, before bleach' rinsing step seem the key.

One question, so washing throughly is very important to redevelop later. Then wouldn't be easier to do light fixing or skipping fix step and just do bleach then final fix?
Is it possible just skipping fixing but bleach / develop / bleach / develop / fix ?

I need to test myself but would be good to know if you already have experiences. Thanks.

revdoc said:

If there are traces of fixer left in the paper when you put it in the ferricyanide/bromide bleach, some of the bleaching will be permanent, because the fixer will fix (i.e., remove) some of the silver bromide created by the bleach. (In fact, ferricyanide+potassium bromide+fixer is also known as Farmer's reducer, which is a non-reversible bleach.)

You want to wash your print very thoroughly before bleaching.

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YJL said:

I see! Now I understand why Farmer's reducer is a non-reversible bleach.
I was focusing more to rinse throughly rinse 'after bleaching' stage, but I think indeed 'after first fix, before bleach' rinsing step seem the key.

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There you go. Seems like you got it!

One question, so washing throughly is very important to redevelop later. Then wouldn't be easier to do light fixing or skipping fix step and just do bleach then final fix?
Is it possible just skipping fixing but bleach / develop / bleach / develop / fix ?

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No...if you skip the fixing step or only fix partly, you will be left with undeveloped silver halide that will develop later on in your second developer step. It will ruin your image. You need to fix fully, then wash thoroughly, and then proceed with bleaching etc.

YJL said:

For instance, I often do lith print or other alternative printing in extreme conditions. In some cases I fail to control chemical ratio or its lifespan, the result could be very foggy or unwanted level(or color). I was wondering if I could apply those failed ones with selenium (to increase contrast, more exactly darker area more darker) OR bleaching(to recover fogged print) until dynamic range become acceptable. If it is controllable I could apply both in same print as well.

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To some extent this may work, but frankly, I'd invest more time into making a good print. Trying to correct problems later on nearly always leads to a compromised end result.

YJL said:

Another case is how much in detail I could bleach partially. I have some print that I also failed to control dodging or recharging chemical, in the end it appears on the print as pretty distinct gradation.(complete dark area just next to normal density) Thus I started to research of the case how to smoothen this boundary areas where showing obvious density differences.(like when you print test strip with splitting exposing time. Can I make this discrete steps into smooth gradation?)

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Yes, you can selectively bleach, by taking a cotton pad or q-tip, dipping it in bleach and selectively apply the bleach to the areas where you want to reduce density. After bleaching, fix the image to permanently remove the bleached silver. It takes some practice and it works best if you apply a little bleach, rinse the print under running water, apply some more bleach, rinse again, until you get the desired density.

YJL said:

I know that I trace not that usual things, and try to apply these with not a normal situation.

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The things you are doing are not so uncommon. They are done frequently by many people and have been done for many decades. There is also a lot written on this and there are several youtube videos of the different techniques you're experimenting with. I'd recommend reading and watching some of the guidelines and descriptions out there.

Thank you for your patience Koraks! I appreciate it.

Yes I saw some youtube videos and discussions of bleaching(+toning) but its hard to grasp until you really do.

I saw some people do selective bleach and it looks more final retouching. Do you think it is possible to bleach pretty extensive areas overall to match the density? Specially my concern was when I bleach the edge of high density area it will bleach nearby low density areas inevitably so end up making higher contrast. I am not sure if it is understandable but I attached some photo from internet, similar situation that I'd like to fix. You may see the stain or darker area for some reason in the sky. I wonder is there any way to fix this kinda situation? (Maybe ideally possible with micro qtip, but I'd want to know the answer in practical common-sense level..)

koraks said:

There you go. Seems like you got it!

Yes, you can selectively bleach, by taking a cotton pad or q-tip, dipping it in bleach and selectively apply the bleach to the areas where you want to reduce density. After bleaching, fix the image to permanently remove the bleached silver. It takes some practice and it works best if you apply a little bleach, rinse the print under running water, apply some more bleach, rinse again, until you get the desired density.

The things you are doing are not so uncommon. They are done frequently by many people and have been done for many decades. There is also a lot written on this and there are several youtube videos of the different techniques you're experimenting with. I'd recommend reading and watching some of the guidelines and descriptions out there.

Click to expand...