Red lips, Black Lips

hoffy · Dec 23, 2013

Howdy,

Just a bit of a "how did they do it" type of question.

I have been looking at some period (40's, 50's, 60's) glamor/pinup portraiture of late and have been wondering how I could possibly re-create certain aspects.

The one thing that has struck me is how often the lips nearly look very dark and often nearly completely black. Considering that the skin is also quite washed out, it has my thinking how and why does this occur? Is it due to the use of Ortho film? Or is there filtration in play?

Can anyone give me an insight?

Cheers

Angelo di Mango · Dec 23, 2013

What about heavy make-up?
a light blue filter will also darken reddish hues.

Dr Croubie · Dec 23, 2013

I saw a documentary thingy where they were re-creating the filming of a silent B+W movie, not sure from what era (it was a hand-cranked cine-camera, at least).
There, they used Blue lipstick to get the right shade on the B+W film...

Molli · Dec 23, 2013

I'm going to go with a blue filter as well. I did a filter test and, while I wasn't wearing lipstick (no other model handy at 3 in the morning), my lips were significantly darker than without a blue filter. Unfortunately, I have freckles so they were more noticeable, also. If you're not wanting to show up freckles or other blemishes, a decent coating of foundation is definitely required!

hoffy · Dec 23, 2013

Molli said:
I'm going to go with a blue filter as well. I did a filter test and, while I wasn't wearing lipstick (no other model handy at 3 in the morning), my lips were significantly darker than without a blue filter. Unfortunately, I have freckles so they were more noticeable, also. If you're not wanting to show up freckles or other blemishes, a decent coating of foundation is definitely required!

And this is exactly why I am confused! I would have said a blue filter, but that is hardly going to be flattering for a Hollywood starlet! Often, I have noticed that the skin is really blown, but yes, I suppose a lot of that could come down to makeup (my wife hardly wears makeup, so it never comes to mind straight away).

I suppose I am also a touch confused with the likes of Bettie Page - when ever you see her in colour, she has that candy apple red lipstick, but in B&W those lips are quite dark. I also suppose, how often would have she been involved in a shoot at the same time that was both in colour and B&W.

Molli · Dec 23, 2013

Dr Croubie said:
I saw a documentary thingy where they were re-creating the filming of a silent B+W movie, not sure from what era (it was a hand-cranked cine-camera, at least).
There, they used Blue lipstick to get the right shade on the B+W film...

That surprises me given that, to the best of my knowledge, film has always been most sensitive to blue. Then again, throw on an orange filter and you're killing two birds with one stone with the blue lipstick - dark lips and glowing white skin. It would obviate the need for a blue filter (thus lessening the need to cake on the make up) and would avoid zombie white eyes for those of us with blue eyes.
Okay, that works for me

Rick A · Dec 23, 2013

In the old days, they only had orthochromatic film, no red sensitivity.

benjiboy · Dec 23, 2013

Rick A said:
In the old days, they only had orthochromatic film, no red sensitivity.

Quite correct Rick, films were not panochromatic (sensitive to all colours)
you just beat me to it.

Molli · Dec 23, 2013

Given that Hoffy spoke of the 40s, 50s and 60s, I discounted orthochromatic films as the cause since they were phased out of use in Holywood studios during the late thirties. I'm going purely from Roger Hicks and Christopher Nisperos' 'Holywood Portraits' book here. All of the decades mentioned are just a tad before my time

removed account4 · Dec 23, 2013

Rick A said:
In the old days, they only had orthochromatic film, no red sensitivity.

yup, there was TRI-X ORTHO as well ( asa 400 )
karsh used this film a lot, or something like it
we used to use it in the 1980s as well ...

you can probably recreate this look using filters

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

cliveh · Dec 23, 2013

Rick A said:
In the old days, they only had orthochromatic film, no red sensitivity.

Rick is correct.

Newt_on_Swings · Dec 23, 2013

Saw this online a little while back and is a good example of the use of colors on the original adams family set to get good black and white tones when shot.

http://i.imgur.com/MIV9yAQ.jpg

Kinda trippy to see it in color.

pentaxuser · Dec 23, 2013

On the early Baird B&W TV models I am sure I read that the presenters had to use green lipstick to make their lips stand out. Could the same apply to still shots and could it be made even darker with red or magenta filters?

pentaxuser

kintatsu · Dec 23, 2013

A #66 filter should do the trick. For a more intense effect, a #58 will work quite nicely. Freckles and blemishes may need some cover up, though, as they darken with the green also.

Molli · Dec 23, 2013

Newt_on_Swings said:
Saw this online a little while back and is a good example of the use of colors on the original adams family set to get good black and white tones when shot.

http://i.imgur.com/MIV9yAQ.jpg

Kinda trippy to see it in color.

Wow, that looks incredibly garish when one is used to seeing the set in black and white!

Gerald C Koch · Dec 23, 2013

In order to get the effect of an orthochromatic film you must use a minus-red filter (cyan). A blue or green filter is not going to give the same effect. You want red light to be filtered out but not the other colors. For the color blind film used in early silent films you would use a blue filter as these films were not sensitized to other colors.

Early experiments in television used a sensor that was also orthochromatic. To compensate makeup that was green not red was used. People looked quit ghastly in person when using it.

fotch · Dec 23, 2013

Rick A said:
In the old days, they only had orthochromatic film, no red sensitivity.

+++Ortho

kintatsu · Dec 23, 2013

Gerald C Koch said:
In order to get the effect of an orthochromatic film you must use a minus-red filter (cyan). A blue or green filter is not going to give the same effect. You want red light to be filtered out but not the other colors. For the color blind film used in early silent films you would use a blue filter as these films were not sensitized to other colors.

According to AA's Basic Photo 4, Natural Light Photography, a 38, 38A, or 66 will give a good representation of ortho film. He also says a #66 will give the most satisfactory results with its high green transmission. Although a 65A might be better suited for what your trying, based on Kodak's Pub B-3, and on the old Transmission of Wratten Filters guide.

Of course, using filters to do what you can with ortho film may seem contrary to the sensible approach, they will work in the absence of ortho film.

Panchromatic film was introduced around 1905, although it wasn't until the 30s-40s that it gained real acceptance outside cinematic uses.

Drifter · Dec 23, 2013

I was once told that make-up, as well as clothing and even set colours were specifically chosen to look 'right' in B/W. The cinematographers back then had a great eye for how things looked with their particular film stock. The colour publicity shots may have been something separate.

Sirius Glass · Dec 23, 2013

Standard trick that I had used in the past, use ortho film to get the almost black lips.

Pioneer · Dec 23, 2013

You might be able to do something similar with paper negatives.

removed account4 · Dec 24, 2013

Pioneer said:
You might be able to do something similar with paper negatives.

yup
or hand coated glass plates

Dr Croubie · Dec 24, 2013

Molli said:
That surprises me given that, to the best of my knowledge, film has always been most sensitive to blue. Then again, throw on an orange filter and you're killing two birds with one stone with the blue lipstick - dark lips and glowing white skin. It would obviate the need for a blue filter (thus lessening the need to cake on the make up) and would avoid zombie white eyes for those of us with blue eyes.
Okay, that works for me

Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't make sense. Maybe if they'd used red lipstick on ortho film, the lips would have appeared black, which is why they used blue lipstick to get a slight shade of grey to the lips. That makes more sense...

Prof_Pixel · Dec 24, 2013

See 'Early Movie Make-up' at http://www.cosmeticsandskin.com/cdc/early-movie.php

Also 'Panchromatic Make-up' at http://www.cosmeticsandskin.com/cdc/panchromatic.php

hoffy · Dec 24, 2013

Prof_Pixel said:
See 'Early Movie Make-up' at http://www.cosmeticsandskin.com/cdc/early-movie.php

Also 'Panchromatic Make-up' at http://www.cosmeticsandskin.com/cdc/panchromatic.php

Thanks! Nice little resource.

Red lips, Black Lips

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