Recommendations for Using Arista Arifix Fixer in Powder Form

gone · Sep 12, 2013

I'm about out of Kodak Rapid Fixer, but have an unopened bag of Arista Arifix Fixer in powder form. Is anyone here using this, and do you have any recommendations on how you use it? The last time I tried it, there was serious issues w/ the film looking like it was under fixed, but now I'm wondering if I used it with the times of my usual Kodak Rapid Fixer, which would probably account for the under fixing.

Rick A · Sep 12, 2013

I've never used it, but the info claims it makes one gallon working solution, not stock solution, so no diluting it any farther. Did you per chance dilute it previously?

gone · Sep 12, 2013

I wish I could remember Rick, but I don't. I did happen upon a thread on another forum, and the photographer there had exactly the same problem that I had, namely the image was there on one side, but the back side of the film was completely grey. He used it diluted 1:4, so maybe that was the problem. I'm not sure if it's OK to post a link here to another forum, but I'll do it, and if it's not OK the mods can remove it and I won't do it again. I can always do the film leader in the fixer test, but until I hear from someone who is actually using this fixer w/ good results, it's going back in the fridge unopened. I'll just stick w/ what I know and reorder the Kodak Rapid Fixer
from Freestyle.

http://nelsonfoto.com/SMF/index.php?topic=19347.0;wap2

Roger Cole · Sep 12, 2013

If it's what I think, Freestyle brand of the same formula as powdered Kodak Fixer, fixing times will need to be about double what you use with Rapid Fix, maybe more for t-grain films. The old rule of thumb was to test with a bit if scrap film and fix for twice as long as it took the emulsion to clear, but I've heard that some extend that to three times for t-grain films. Ocer fixing does no harm, at least with any reasonable time.

snederhiser · Sep 12, 2013

Hello;
This should work the same as Kodak's powdered fixer. Clip a small piece of film and see how long it takes to clear in the fixer and double the time. Could be 5 to 10 minutes, Steven.

Rudeofus · Sep 13, 2013

momus said:
I'm about out of Kodak Rapid Fixer, but have an unopened bag of Arista Arifix Fixer in powder form. Is anyone here using this, and do you have any recommendations on how you use it? The last time I tried it, there was serious issues w/ the film looking like it was under fixed, but now I'm wondering if I used it with the times of my usual Kodak Rapid Fixer, which would probably account for the under fixing.

The MSDS of this Arifix Fixer reveals that Arifix is a Sodium Thiosulfate based fixer, which makes it unsuitable for film fixing as is. It has been mentioned on numerous occasions here that only Rapid Fixer (i.e. Ammonium Thiosulfate based fixer) has the oompft to fix modern films to archival standards. Keep your partially fixed strips in complete darkness until you get around to refix with Rapid Fixer.

clayne · Sep 13, 2013

No rapid fixer is in powder form. You can't distribute ammonium thiosulfate in any kind of stable powder form - hence why it's always sold as liquid. I've used this fixer quite a bit and it's fine - just treat it as a standard sodium thiosulfate (hypo) fixer.

pdeeh · Sep 13, 2013

Rudeofus said:
a Sodium Thiosulfate based fixer ... unsuitable for film fixing as is. It has been mentioned on numerous occasions here that only Rapid Fixer (i.e. Ammonium Thiosulfate based fixer) has the oompft to fix modern films to archival standards..

Really?
Why so?
Care to elaborate? (or give links to where this has been discussed, as it's damn tricky to come up with a search string that nabs exactly what's needed)

clayne · Sep 13, 2013

Sodium thiosulfate fixers are perfectly suitable for film - but hey have limited capacity and I wouldn't think of using them without a double bath.

fotch · Sep 13, 2013

Rudeofus said:
The MSDS of this Arifix Fixer reveals that Arifix is a Sodium Thiosulfate based fixer, which makes it unsuitable for film fixing as is. It has been mentioned on numerous occasions here that only Rapid Fixer (i.e. Ammonium Thiosulfate based fixer) has the oompft to fix modern films to archival standards. Keep your partially fixed strips in complete darkness until you get around to refix with Rapid Fixer.

Wrong! From Freestyles web site "Arista Arifix Powder Fixer is a standard rapid acting, hardening fixer for both film and paper."

Gerald C Koch · Sep 13, 2013

fotch said:
Wrong! From Freestyles web site "Arista Arifix Powder Fixer is a standard rapid acting, hardening fixer for both film and paper."

This would not be the first time that claims were false in a photo catalog. I would believe what the MSDS says since OSHA through the Rignt To Know Act can levy very stiff fines if an MSDS contains an error.

MattKing · Sep 13, 2013

Rudeofus said:
The MSDS of this Arifix Fixer reveals that Arifix is a Sodium Thiosulfate based fixer, which makes it unsuitable for film fixing as is. It has been mentioned on numerous occasions here that only Rapid Fixer (i.e. Ammonium Thiosulfate based fixer) has the oompft to fix modern films to archival standards. Keep your partially fixed strips in complete darkness until you get around to refix with Rapid Fixer.

I have never seen anything here on APUG or anywhere else that authoritatively states that "standard" (Sodium Thiosulfate) fixer is unsuitable for film - modern or otherwise.

A Sodium Thiosulfate fixer is less convenient, in that it requires much longer fixing times, and it tends to include hardener, which makes it necessary to either wash longer, or use a washaid, or both, so I prefer and recommend Rapid Fixers instead.

But Sodium Thiosulfate fixers work fine, if the necessary care is taken with them.

pdeeh · Sep 13, 2013

@MattKing - this is why I asked for clarification by Rudeofus;

I happened to run out of rapid fixer a little while ago, but happened to have the ingredients on hand for F24, so made up a litre of that instead. Spot tests for clearing time indicate fixing times for most film I'm using at 4-5 minutes. As it's a non-hardening fixer I'm sticking to an Ilford regime for washing.

gone · Sep 13, 2013

Very interesting info here. My Kodak Rapid Fixer should be here soon, and I'm sticking w/ that. Once burned, twice learned (although it generally takes a lot more than that for my hard head). I love Freestyle, but have bought some products there that were not good. I've tried twice to shoot the Arista EDU 100 in 120 format, and both times it came out looking more like lith film. Extreme contrast, and I followed the developing protocol exactly, so it isn't me. If no one is using this fixer, there's a reason for it.

Rudeofus · Sep 13, 2013

MattKing said:
I have never seen anything here on APUG or anywhere else that authoritatively states that "standard" (Sodium Thiosulfate) fixer is unsuitable for film - modern or otherwise.

I may have been a bit overzealous with my original statement, but I have made the experience that Sodium Thiosulfate based fixers (including those I augmented with Ammonium Chloride) will not get rid of this magenta dye that seems to indicate poor fixation in TMX, TMY and recent versions of Tri-X. Given the price of Rapid Fixer I see no point in hanging on to these ancient Sodium Thiosulfate fixer recipes for film.

gone · Sep 13, 2013

For what it's worth, here's what the label on the package of Arifix Fixer: "Contains: Sodium Thiosulfate, Sodium Metabisulfate, Sodium Acetate.

Mixing Instructions: Start with 96 OZ of water at 100 degrees F. With rapid and continuous stirring, slowly pour the contents into the water. When powder is dissolved, add water to bring the total volume to 1 gallon. Use the solution straight. Most continuous films and papers should be fixed for 2 minutes. Fixing temperature should be 65-70 degrees F".

2 minutes? Hmmm. Therein may be the problem?

MattKing · Sep 14, 2013

Rudeofus said:
I may have been a bit overzealous with my original statement, but I have made the experience that Sodium Thiosulfate based fixers (including those I augmented with Ammonium Chloride) will not get rid of this magenta dye that seems to indicate poor fixation in TMX, TMY and recent versions of Tri-X. Given the price of Rapid Fixer I see no point in hanging on to these ancient Sodium Thiosulfate fixer recipes for film.

I think the magenta colouration is actually a poor indicator of how complete the fixing operation is.

It is true that longer fix times will help remove the colour, but I don't think that there is any direct, causative relationship between incomplete fixing and incomplete removal of what is the essentially harmless magenta. I expect that the magenta retention is related to ph and the amount of soaking time for the film.

HCA seems to help remove the magenta, and that has the effect of assisting with the removal of the fixer.

Rudeofus · Sep 14, 2013

MattKing said:
I think the magenta colouration is actually a poor indicator of how complete the fixing operation is.

There is an endless thread on magenta cast on TMAX which AFAIK concluded that incomplete fixation indeed leaves the magenta dye. Note that incomplete fixation does not only mean AgBr/AgI, but can also mean insoluble Silver Thiosulfate complexes which can only be washed out with HCA.

Rudeofus · Sep 14, 2013

momus said:
2 minutes? Hmmm. Therein may be the problem?

As others have already commented, 4-5 minutes fixing time is the absolute minimum with Sodium Thiosulfate based fixer, especially if you reuse it. If you are unsure about fixing time, take a small test clip of that film and do a clearing test. I still recommend you stick with Rapid Fixer for film.

clayne · Sep 14, 2013

Want to be safe with any fixer and never cut corners?

Use 2 baths.
Fix 5 minutes in EACH bath.
Commence rotation (bath 2 becomes 1) when fixer 1 indicates near exhaustion.

Use the same technique for film, paper, whatever. AH dyes are easily washed out with HCA or a long post soak. Yes fixer on the way out may show symptoms by dyes being left over but not all films show this effect proportionally.

Rudeofus · Sep 14, 2013

clayne said:
Want to be safe with any fixer and never cut corners?

Use 2 baths.
Fix 5 minutes in EACH bath.
Commence rotation (bath 2 becomes 1) when fixer 1 indicates near exhaustion.

The great thing about Rapid Fixer is that you don't have to do all that ...

clayne · Sep 14, 2013

Yes, actually you do. If you think ammonium thiosulfate fixers obviate or avoid a 2-bath technique, that is NOT the case. I'd never fix under 5:00 with any rapid fixer and I'd only single stage something if it were absolutely new fixer and I didn't have a 2nd bath prepared. 2 stage fixing takes more time but drastically cuts down the possibility of underfixing.

pdeeh · Sep 14, 2013

ah The Fixer Wars have broken out ... :munch:

Rudeofus · Sep 14, 2013

Every credible source about fixation states that 2-3 times clearing time are sufficient for archival fixing. It is also known that double bath fixation substantially prolongs fixer life but is not essential for archival fixing. Since overfixation rarely causes image defects, especially with modern, near neutral fixers, I will make no effort to convince people to reduce their fixing time or bath count.

Roger Cole · Sep 14, 2013

Two bath fixation is better and gets more life from fixer but isn't essential.

This fixer should work fine. I've used plenty of powdered Kodak fixer in my day before changing to rapid fix, with zero problems just longer fix times, and this is the same thing.

Teat to find the clearing time with a piece of scrap film then (re)fix you negatives for three times that time in fresh fix, wash thoroughly and repor back - id bet they will be fine,

Recommendations for Using Arista Arifix Fixer in Powder Form

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Recommendations for Using Arista Arifix Fixer in Powder Form

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