Recommendations for first view camera

[apconan]

Hi there, I'm looking for some advice on a first view camera, in 4x5. I want to do some research but have no idea where to start, so some names of cameras and lenses would be great. I don't need the best quality, and my price range is probably below 500.

Thanks.

 

[Christopher Walrath]

You might consider getting into LF via a good press camera. Speed and Crown Graphics are the name and are premium. I have a B&J 4x5 Press Camera that can be had for less. Has the look and is an awesome camera. It is my beater. View cameras do two things. They get introduce more movement and thus more to check for a newcomer. Can make things a little more problematic at first. Secondly, much more money getting tino the format. Just my $0.02.

 

[Ian Grant]

Don't start with a Press camera they are far to limiting. I do use them for hand-held work but my Wista wins outright. Shen Hao's are cheap, plenty of good LF cameras are sold in the Classifieds here.

Ian

 

[fotch]

I agree with Chris. In addition, if you definitely want a view camera instead of a 4x5 format type camera, check out the older but solid Calumet View cameras. Based on an earlier Kodak design (I believe) they are very good for a very affordable price. Someone has one for sale on the Milwaukee Craigslist, with lens, for $75. If I didn't already have one, which I paid a lot more for, would of jumped all over this.

 

[M.A.Longmore]

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A few years back I got an OmegaView 45F, ( Toyo ) Starter kit from Calumet.
Got the complete camera, holders, 210mm Rodenstock lens, cable release,
DeLuxe Focusing Cloth, several lensboards, a cheap focusing cloth
cheapo GG magnifier, assorted accessories, all for $300.00 !
Digital was all the rage back then so I guess view cameras had no value ?
Also bought a 45C for $55.00 ! Great cameras at a great price.
Remember any lens can be attached to any view camera with the right lensboard.
No limits, and you will have lots of money left over for film, and chemicals !
And a Sekonic L-398 meter !
I would also recommend doing a dry run for a few days with the camera.
Practice all the steps of picture taking without film, make sure you have the
sequences correct. Then buy a 10pak of Ektachrome, expose them as carefully as possible, make thorough notes for each exposure, and view your results on a transparency, you can find a lab that will develop a sheet for $3.00.
Hopefully, you will be encouraged by the results.


Ron
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[Jeff Searust]

.
A few years back I got an OmegaView 45F, ( Toyo ) Starter kit from Calumet.
Got the complete camera, holders, 210mm Rodenstock lens, cable release,
DeLuxe Focusing Cloth, several lensboards, a cheap focusing cloth
cheapo GG magnifier, assorted accessories, all for $300.00 !

Ron, this sounds about like my first-- I got an Omega 45G with a bunch of other goodies for just under $200 on the evil auction site. I think something like that or a Cambo or a Calumet... some sort of rail camera would by far be the best for a starter. Plan on $100-$200 for a camera, $100-$200 for a lens and say $50 - $100 for several film holders. Add a box of film, a changing bag and maybe chemistry and you are set for a good month of fun...

 

[frednewman]

Hi apconan

My favorite 4x5 for beginners is the Shen-Hao PTB 4X5. It only weighs 3 lbs, so it's not going to hurt your back carrying it around. It's based on the Dick Phillips design so it is extremely rigid. Dick phillips was a very innovative camera designer and his cameras were very light weight and very rigid. If you only wanted one lens probably a 135mm f/5.6 such as a Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon or Fuji. They would all be good lenses and at f/5.6 would be easy to focus.
Keep it simple and maybe a film like Ilford HP5+ and processed in D-76 or Ilford ID-11.

Fred Newman

 

[apconan]

Definitely not going to go for a press camera. Need the movements.
I'm aware of the cost of shooting, but can't deal with a large initial cost. So I'd like to keep the camera as low in price as possible, but am ready to pay the $7 or so per shot.

thanks for suggestions so far, researching them now.

 

[2F/2F]

SINAR F - At a few hundred bucks, and being a part of one of the most versatile and highest quality large format systems ever made, why get anything else at this time? Other cameras are great (I didn't learn on a SINAR...I just lusted after one for years and years, and finally got one when they came down in price.), but the low used-market prices for SINAR Fs at this particular time make it very hard for me to suggest anything else.

Lenses: Something by Schneider, Rodenstock, Fuji, or Nikkor will be a good starting point. They are all good. There are also plenty of other good lenses that have been made, but make sure you can find out the image circle specifications for them before you select one. This could prove difficult with some older lenses.

I would start with a 210. It is one of the most versatile 4x5 lenses, and they are plentiful and cheap. It can do a lot of work in studio, where extreme movements are often required for still life pictures, and also has a near-normal (just a hair narrower) angle of view for general-purpose photography. They generally have healthier image circles than 150s and 180s, so you can learn to use all the movements the camera has to offer without being restricted by the lens.

On the wide end, a 90 is the most common 4x5 wide-angle lens. Personally, I think they are too wide for most things I choose to shoot, but I can see why they are so often recommended. Like the 210, they are very versatile, very common, and very cheap in the grand scheme of things.

So, I will be boring and suggest the typical 4x5 kit that nearly everyone suggests to beginners: 90 and 210. If you get the slow models (usually f/6 point something as opposed to f/5 point something), you can save a lot of money.

 

[M.A.Longmore]

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The Shen-Hao PTB 4X5 is a very nice very light camera, easy on the back.
But, not on the budget @ $600.00 =,- ?
If you buy a B&W film, you will pay much more for lab processing.
Or setting up your own at home. Ektachrome gives you instant results, 10 sheets = $30.00.
Once you see the results, then you can proceed to doing your own B&W @ home.
Ektachrome is the next best thing to having a Polaroid, or Fuji holder.
I'm not saying shoot Ektachrome for the rest of your life, just the initial practice session.


Ron
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[Ian Grant]

About 3 or 4 years ago I got a great light weight budget Cambo Cadet (also Calumet Cadet) for about £100 ($155) mint. I use it in the landscape occasionally, it's so light it can be carried on a tripod. Better Cambo's aren't much more in the US, and there's plenty of other bargains as well (not many in the UK though).

Ian

 

[36cm2]

Someone correct me if they feel this is wrong, but here's my view of useful info for your analysis:



There are three main types of view cameras:

- Press cameras (e.g., Speed Graphic, Crown Graphic)

Cons: - Very limited movements
- Not as light as some field cameras

Pros: - Compact (like a field camera)
- Durable (metal construction)
- Handholdable (although I think shooting 4x5 handheld is anachronistic)
- Least expensive entry point – (~$150 -$300)

Use: Probably best for handheld portraits and candids, maybe street photography. Think Weegee.



- Field cameras (e.g., Tachihara, Shen-hao, Wista, Deardorff, Ebony, Linhof Technika)

Cons: - Cheaper ones may lack some movements
- Wooden ones are more fragile than metal ones
- Wooden ones may be more prone to vibration/flex than metal ones
- Some have limited bellows length (meaning you can only use lenses up to a certain length)

Pros: - Most compact
- Lightest (especially wooden ones)
- Lots of selection and broad price range ($500 - $3,000)

Use: Probably best for hiking.



- Rail cameras

Cons: - Least compact
- Slower setup

Pros: - Most extensive movements
- Typically less expensive than field cameras (you can get a good basic one used for $400)

Use: Probably best for architectural work and indoor studio work.



Then you need to think about lenses (if your camera doesn’t come with one). In general, they run anywhere from $100 - $1500 each, depending on modernity, use, focal length.

Wide angle – 60-120mm (90 and 110 seem to be most popular lengths)

Standard – 135 – 180mm (150 is closest equivalent to 50mm lens for 35mm cameras)

Tele – 210-500mm (210, 240 and 300 seem to be most popular lengths)

If you only get one lens, most would say get a standard lens. Many people do all their work with a set of three (e.g., 90mm, 150mm, 240mm).



Then you need to think about accessories:

- Film holders (e.g., basic ($10-20), grafmatic ($100), rollfilm back ($100-$300))
- Darkcloth
- Loupe (to assist in groundglass focusing)
- Shutter release cables
- Film (this is the subject of about a million other posts)
- Tripod and head
- Light meter
- Protective carrying cases



Based on my experience, I think you can:

- start shooting LF for as little as $300;
- establish a very practical single lens kit for $800-1200;
- establish a very flexible multiple lens kit for $1200-1600.



I hope this helps.

Leo

 

[williamtheis]

check out

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

especially the equipment reveiws. you might just start with a Calumet or graphic view II for almost next to nothing to see if you are suited for it

 

[altair]

Posted wirelessly..

I'm looking to get my 1st 4x5 camera soon, will be watching this thread with interest.

So far, because of its low price point, I'm keen on a press camera, like a Crown/Speed Graphic. But I have to admit I havent done a lot of research on movements. Ok, so press cameras lack movement capability, or they can have small movements only...so what does that mean to a total LF noob like me? Will I not be able to get shots like this: http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/kadarlevente/2344005056/in/search_QM_q_IS_sinar+4x5_AND_prefs_photos_IS_1_AND_mt_IS_all_AND_w_IS_all_AND_s_IS_int
where the DOF is very thin?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Don't start with a Press camera they are far to limiting. I do use them for hand-held work but my Wista wins outright. Shen Hao's are cheap, plenty of good LF cameras are sold in the Classifieds here.

Ian

Someone correct me if they feel this is wrong, but here's my view of useful info for your analysis:



There are three main types of view cameras:

- Press cameras (e.g., Speed Graphic, Crown Graphic)

Cons: - Very limited movements
- Not as light as some field cameras

Pros: - Compact (like a field camera)
- Durable (metal construction)
- Handholdable (although I think shooting 4x5 handheld is anachronistic)
- Least expensive entry point – (~$150 -$300)

Use: Probably best for handheld portraits and candids, maybe street photography. Think Weegee.



- Field cameras (e.g., Tachihara, Shen-hao, Wista, Deardorff, Ebony, Linhof Technika)

Cons: - Cheaper ones may lack some movements
- Wooden ones are more fragile than metal ones
- Wooden ones may be more prone to vibration/flex than metal ones
- Some have limited bellows length (meaning you can only use lenses up to a certain length)

Pros: - Most compact
- Lightest (especially wooden ones)
- Lots of selection and broad price range ($500 - $3,000)

Use: Probably best for hiking.



- Rail cameras

Cons: - Least compact
- Slower setup

Pros: - Most extensive movements
- Typically less expensive than field cameras (you can get a good basic one used for $400)

Use: Probably best for architectural work and indoor studio work.

I disagree with Ian. I just started with a Pacesetter Speed Graphic and will be receiving a Graflex Model D. The Speed Graphic is light weight, compact and durable. I can always carry it around. Later, if I want to get more involved with movements, I can get a field camera and still use the lenses. If I got a field camera first then the lenses might not be compatible with the press camera.

The Graflex Model D gives me a bulkly SLR that tells me the depth of field. It is for the times that I want to see what I will get without setting up a tripod first. Both the Speed and the Model D can be put on a tripod and use the ground glass.

A field camera is a possibility in the future but not now.

I will probably never really need a rail camera.

Steve

 

[36cm2]

It's actually the opposite.

1) Very thin DOF, like your example, has nothing to do with movements, it has to do with using a large aperture. Large format lenses have very shallow depth of field until you get into the smaller apertures (i.e. f/16, f/22, f/32, f/45). Many photographers end up taking photos like your example because you need a ton of light to be able to use those small apertures. So, if you use available light for a 4x5 portrait and are forced to use a large aperture, you will end up with a very shallow DOF portrait, like your example. So, to answer your concern, you can achieve that look with a press camera without any problem.

2) Movements are used (i) to change the axis of the depth of field so that the entire photograph is in focus (e.g., huge rock in foreground and mountain in far background are simultaneously in focus) and (ii) to change perspective (e.g., tall buildings can be photographed from below and look straight instead of curved in toward the top). If you aren't doing architectural work and you aren't terribly concerned about extreme near-far landscapes, then having very limited movements may not be a great hindrance.

 

[36cm2]

Sorry, my last post was in response to Altair's question.

 

[Ian Grant]

I started with a studio monorail, after 10 years (1986) I bought a field camera.

I'd prefer not to go back, but my later Cambo is light weight.

But NO WAY would I suggest a Press Camera, if that's all you've used fine but you are really missing out what LF is all about, and it's poor advice to suggest others follow your steps.

Come out on a shoot with me and I'll show you the problems & limitations of a press camera, and I get great results from mine

Ian

I disagree with Ian. I just started with a Pacesetter Speed Graphic and will be receiving a Graflex Model D. The Speed Graphic is light weight, compact and durable. I can always carry it around. Later, if I want to get more involved with movements, I can get a field camera and still use the lenses. If I got a field camera first then the lenses might not be compatible with the press camera.

The Graflex Model D gives me a bulkly SLR that tells me the depth of field. It is for the times that I want to see what I will get without setting up a tripod first. Both the Speed and the Model D can be put on a tripod and use the ground glass.

A field camera is a possibility in the future but not now.

I will probably never really need a rail camera.

Steve

 

[36cm2]

If the choice is get a press camera or get nothing at all, then get a press camera. If the choice is press camera vs. field/rail that is still in my price range and in reasonable condition, then get field/rail.

 

[apconan]

Really great replies from everyone. 2F/2F, that was informative, thanks, along with others.

And yes, the main reason I'm even looking at one is that some of my photos require the geometry of having straight lines and proper perspective.

 

[2F/2F]

Some people just want a big piece of film, and don't need much in terms of movement. If this is what you want, a press camera is fine.

If you want to be able to use a camera to manipulate your images a fair degree, then you need something that offers a bit more movement than a press camera (though not all that much more, i.e a Technika or Super Speed as opposed to a Pacemaker or earlier Graphic can do quite a lot).

If you need an absolutely unrestricted camera in terms of being able to manipulate your images, then you need a rail or flatbed camera with movements that are only restricted by lens and bellows.

Personally, I found myself wanting a press camera soon after getting my first 4x5 (a rail camer, Graflex GVII), because there were so many situations in which I simply wanted a big piece of film, and did not need all (or anything) that the rail camera had to offer, aside from the big piece of film.

If I had started with a press camera, I would have done the opposite: sought a rail camera soon afterward, in order to allow me to further manipulate my pictures with camera movements.

My suggestion to a beginner who is not sure what they want is to start with a rail camera. That way you can do everything in terms of movement. It is likely that even if you find yourself needing a press camera afterward, you can get one (They are cheap, after all.), and the rail camera will still see use when needed.

 

[2F/2F]

I just saw the last post made by the OP.

I'd definitely go with a rail camera.

One thing I want to mention: Camera movements do absolutely nothing to change perspective, nor is there any such thing as "proper" perspective. Perspective only really means the camera's view of the subject. Therefore, it can't be proper or improper. It just is what it is: the camera's view of the subject. Where you place the camera in relation to the subject is the only thing that affects perspective. Perspective is the very first (and probably the most important) choice we make when taking pictures: Where do I put the camera in relation to the subject?

What you are talking about is controlling the geometry (shapes) of subjects in the image. You can do this via various camera movements. The way it works is that different parts of the film frame are placed at different depths within the image "cone," thus making magnification of the subject different on different parts of the film. The part of the image that appears too tiny or too large before making camera movements is enlarged or reduced to match the part of the image that you have deemed to be the right size, after you make the movements.

 

[36cm2]

One thing I want to mention: Camera movements do absolutely nothing to change perspective,

This is semantics, but camera movements do impact perspective based upon the definition below. Movements are, in fact, a fantastic "technique of changing the depiction of volumes and spatial relationships", which is why view cameras rock. That being said, I get 2F/2F's overarching point and agree.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perspective

perspective
- 5 dictionary results

–noun
1.
a technique of depicting volumes and spatial relationships on a flat surface. Compare aerial perspective, linear perspective.
2.
a picture employing this technique, esp. one in which it is prominent: an architect's perspective of a house.
3.
a visible scene, esp. one extending to a distance; vista: a perspective on the main axis of an estate.
4.
the state of existing in space before the eye: The elevations look all right, but the building's composition is a failure in perspective.
5.
the state of one's ideas, the facts known to one, etc., in having a meaningful interrelationship: You have to live here a few years to see local conditions in perspective.
6.
the faculty of seeing all the relevant data in a meaningful relationship: Your data is admirably detailed but it lacks perspective.
7.
a mental view or prospect: the dismal perspective of terminally ill patients.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Frankly, I'd look for a good field camera as a starter. I still have my Shen Hao, ten years on, and although I don't shoot 4x5 much anymore, I keep the camera because it's very useable and useful. The Shen-Hao is not the lightest 4x5 field camera out there, but it's very rugged and durable (mine was made of teak - not sure what they're using for them now). I've dragged it around the California Sierra at altitudes of up to 10,000 feet, to beaches and deserts, and in to rivers before, not to mention cities. I've shot paying architecture and interior jobs with it, so it has all the movements you could need. It has an accessory bag bellows for very little money, so you can use extreme wide-angle lenses with it without needing recessed lens boards. The one real downside is only a downside if you want to use long focal lengths - the Shen-Hao rusn out of steam at around 300mm (you can do some funky things with the front and rear standards to stretch it out to 360mm, but it's not ideal). I solved that problem with a Fuji 300T telephoto lens.

They've come up a little in price since I bought mine, but I think you can still get the basic body for around $600-$650 (mine was $450 or $500). I think monorails are justifiable only if you are doing a lot of tabletop or macro photography where you need extreme movements and/or bellows draw. Otherwise the rail is a major impediment to use, especially in the field, because it adds bulk and weight, enemies of easy transportation.

 

[M.A.Longmore]

.
The Magic Number Is $500.00 for a starter kit.
Skimp on the camera, "Splurge" on the lens.
Practice the procedures, and then shoot a 10 pack of Ektachrome.
You gotta burn it, to learn it !


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