Recommendations for first view camera

Sirius Glass · Aug 3, 2010

36cm2 said:
Sorry, my last post was in response to Altair's question.

I am glad you clarified that. I recommend that anyone moving into LF or even MF have a thorough understanding about the basics of exposure, contrast, composition ... and more.

Steve

2F/2F · Aug 3, 2010

Sirius Glass said:
I am glad you clarified that. I recommend that anyone moving into LF or even MF have a thorough understanding about the basics of exposure, contrast, composition ... and more.

Steve

...and if they don't, they will soon have plenty of incentive to learn all of that quickly, lest they go broke re shooting everything at a dollar a shot!

Sirius Glass · Aug 3, 2010

Ian Grant said:
But NO WAY would I suggest a Press Camera, if that's all you've used fine but you are really missing out what LF is all about, and it's poor advice to suggest others follow your steps.

Come out on a shoot with me and I'll show you the problems & limitations of a press camera, and I get great results from mine

Ian

Ian,

Send me a round trip airplane ticket. I will pay for your film and we can go photographing for a week.

Steve

Christopher Walrath · Aug 3, 2010

No.. For reasons you mention, Conan, definitely go with the view camera. Bear in mind you might have to patiently shop around for a functioning kit in your budget.

"500 will get me there, but not in style." - Marion Ravenwood, Nepal (paraphrased)

Rick A · Aug 4, 2010

What do you consider "style" Chris? I have less than $300 invested in a 4x5 kit, and it serves me very well indeed. I picked up a Calumet cc-401(long rail) in a swap(in pristeen cond), and found lenses for cheap or free. My main lens is a 127mm Ysarex from a $30 Polaroid 110a. I bought film holders and a Tiltall tripod, then a Calumet cc-400(in excellent cond) came my way via another swap, it included a 150mm lens and a really nice compendium hood. I traded into another Tiltall and bought more film holders. Now my daughter and I can shoot together. I still have under $300 invested for all this, and we shoot in style.

altair · Aug 4, 2010

36cm2: Thanks for your reply, I understand more now..forgive my ignorance about movements.

So really, all you LF shooters out there, is a press camera such a bad choice for someone who's just about to start out in LF?

2F/2F · Aug 4, 2010

altair said:
So really, all you LF shooters out there, is a press camera such a bad choice for someone who's just about to start out in LF?

I don't think so.

They may not be the ideal large format setup for someone interested in using the full capabilities one can get from some view cameras, but they will get you shooting, processing, and printing sheet film, and can do quite a bit in terms of movement.

My suggestion if you go this route is a Super Graphic or Super Speed Graphic. They are basically the poor man's Linhof Super Technika. They have tilt, swing, rise, a rotating back, a focusing scale and cams that will match the scale and rangefinder to different lenses, unlike earlier Graflex press cameras.

However, with any camera, it is the lens that will determine to what degree you can use the movements that your camera physically allows. Most lenses that come on press cameras are meant for shooting with everything squared up, so a lens that is designed to be moved should be put on the camera to allow you to make full use of the camera's movements.

One does not need rear movements to achieve control of the geometry of the image. Front shift combined with a tripod head will do the same thing. In fact, I rarely tilt the back or the rail of a full-featured rail camera if I am attempting to square up an image. I leave the rail and back level, and then use shifts and front tilts/swings to achieve the desired geometry by placing the lens in relation to the film. The position of the rail is irrelevant. All that matters is the net effect that one gets by positioning the film in relation to the lens in relation to the subject.

Sirius Glass · Aug 4, 2010

2F/2F said:
I don't think so.

They may not be the ideal large format setup for someone interested in using the full capabilities one can get from some view cameras, but they will get you shooting, processing, and printing sheet film, ...
All that matters is the net effect that one gets by positioning the front film in relation to the lens in relation to the subject.

What he said.

Steve

36cm2 · Aug 4, 2010

altair said:
36cm2: Thanks for your reply, I understand more now..forgive my ignorance about movements.

So really, all you LF shooters out there, is a press camera such a bad choice for someone who's just about to start out in LF?

If I forgave you for your ignorance, then I would have to beg forgiveness for the hundreds of times I've asked similarly basic questions on APUG. I'll pass. Keep asking questions; it's a cycle of learning here.

I still say if the proposition is press camera or no camera, then press camera. Press camera or field/rail within your budget (keeping in mind accessory costs), then field/rail. Preference to field for landscape work. Preference to rail for studio/architectural work.

The best part of all of this is your interest. It's a learning process, but very rewarding.

All the best,
Leo

Ralph Javins · Aug 5, 2010

Ron LarFor4X5 said:
.

Practice the procedures, and then shoot a 10 pack of Ektachrome.
You gotta burn it, to learn it !

.

Good morning, Ron;

May I confirm something with you? Do you really mean that he should "shoot a 10 pack of Ektachrome?" You have used that specific recommendation for apconan at least twice in this thread.

A I recall, Ektachrome was (and still is) a color slide film or color transparency film that you can develop yourself at home using the E-6 Process kit. It is not an "instant" film. Now that Polaroid is gone, the closest thing we have available now (until the IP people get up to 4 by 5 size) is the Fuji Film FP-100-C in size 4 by 5 with their film holder or a Polaroid film holder. That will give an "instant" picture that will show the effects of various view camera movements. From the context of your comment, the use of an "instant" film seems more appropriate.

I just want to confirm with you that you really do mean Eastman Kodak "Ektachrome."

altair · Aug 6, 2010

2F/2F: thanks for your recommendation on the Super Graphic, I'll keep an eye out for those if I decide on the press camera route. I have no doubt that your explanation is very good, but I'm afraid its still a bit too technical for me. I am unfamiliar with how the whole thing works and I'm afraid I won't until I get a 4x5 camera of any type in my grubby hands. I still have much to learn.

36cm2: I'll take your advice to heart, and many thanks for your kind words and encouragement. I seldom venture into the studio and have yet to do any serious landscape/architectural work. One thing for sure though, its time to start saving up!

Sirius Glass · Aug 6, 2010

altair,

You might want to consider the Pacemaker Speed Graphic or the Pacemaker Crown Graphic. These have a wood body and if dropped, they survive well. If you drop a Super Graphic [like you are really going to plan doing that] you will need to take it to an autobody shop!

Steve

altair · Aug 6, 2010

Steve, you speak the truth!i never thought of that..thanks! I passed up on one yesterday, it went for $120. Came with a 105mm Xenar. that lens' image circle must barely fit 4x5.

fotch · Aug 6, 2010

Besides, they didn't make that many Super Graphic's and not for that long. Prices likely higher.

The Crown Graphic is plentiful, light, and a great camera. Speed's also nice, if you need or can use the FP shutter.

holmburgers · Aug 6, 2010

I think that learning on a monorail is a good idea. That's what I'm doing and I love it. Found a Burke & James "Orbit" (same as the Calumet CC-400 series) for $400 on my local craigslist.... ended up getting for $150 plus an old student saxophone that I never played.

Hilarious trade; she didn't play at all, she just thought it would be fun to try it. I sent her a huge and random list of things I'd be willing to trade and she picked the saxophone.

Anyways, it came with a Schneider 180mm Symmar and 5 holders, all in a beautiful wooden dove-tail jointed box.

My point being, photographers are generally an easy going crowd and I think in my case she was just excited that someone would be using it after her and wanted to "pass the torch" so to speak. Thus, deals abound.

Ian Grant · Aug 6, 2010

altair said:
Steve, you speak the truth!i never thought of that..thanks! I passed up on one yesterday, it went for $120. Came with a 105mm Xenar. that lens' image circle must barely fit 4x5.

That was the baby version that uses Roll film, & equivalent film holders, the most a 105 Xenar will cover is 6x9.

You need to do some basic research so you know what you're buying or you'll end up making a big mistake.

Ian

Grif · Aug 6, 2010

Wow,,, Just read most of this thread. And a couple of questions come up. Having a couple of cameras of various formats. And, having never used either roll film back for my sheet film cameras.... So, when you use roll film in a view camera/field camera/Press camera. How often do you use movements or ground glass focusing? Just looking for a feel. My thinking, (not enought experience to count) is that if I was swinging and tilting, I might as well have as big a film as possible, and some development options. I do have a loaned field camera with a roll back and rangefinder, but even it's a complete PIB as a point and shoot. Perhaps it's just experience that will make it more comfortable?

Ian Grant · Aug 6, 2010

Grif said:
Wow,,, Just read most of this thread. And a couple of questions come up. Having a couple of cameras of various formats. And, having never used either roll film back for my sheet film cameras.... So, when you use roll film in a view camera/field camera/Press camera. How often do you use movements or ground glass focusing? Just looking for a feel. My thinking, (not enought experience to count) is that if I was swinging and tilting, I might as well have as big a film as possible, and some development options. I do have a loaned field camera with a roll back and rangefinder, but even it's a complete PIB as a point and shoot. Perhaps it's just experience that will make it more comfortable?

I have a 6x9 Roll film holder for my 5x4 Wista, I used to use it a lot when on longer walking expeditions to save precious 5x4 film. These days I carry a TLR as well as the 5x4, I make quite different images (I always shoot full frame no cropping).

With my Wista I use movements quite frequently more than 80% of the time, with the Crown or Speed Graphic I find lack of movements annoyingly frustrating when in Portrait orientation when I tend to need them most.

Ian

36cm2 · Aug 6, 2010

4x5 roll-backs are an interesting beast. They may save you money on 4x5 film (especially when you're learning), but they cost quite a bit of money themselves. If you have two or three of them, then you can enjoy the benefits of N+- development by using different backs for low/normal/high contrast scenes. I started using backs for just that purpose, as I didn't have a camera with backs (e.g., Hasselblad or RB67). I also used to carry a back with Velvia for rare landscape shots where color counted (read: where my wife insisted I should shoot a color slide).

Nowadays, I have a camera with backs and I don't use my 4x5 backs much at all.

2F/2F · Aug 6, 2010

I am sorry for being overly technical.

I was just trying to say that you can arrive at the same "net" movements via various methods with large format cameras. You do not need rear movements to square images up. All you need is a tripod head and shift on the front. Therefore, one can actually squeeze quite a lot out of a technical camera (like the Technika or Super Speed Graphic), and can do pretty well with press camera (such as a Pacemaker Graphic). Even on a rail camera, I rarely use any rear movements (and when I do, it is usually just shift).

apconan · Aug 6, 2010

I've got three options right now:

1. Burke and james 4x5 format camera with Rapax/ Wollensak lens: series IV - Velostigmat 9 1/2" f6.3. I'm skeptical because I can't find too much information on the camera/lens, but I would get this as long as it allows for good movement, and can take a lens board that isn't uncommon.

Can anyone tell from this photo?
Comes with film holders too, $200 for package.

2. A Toyo monorail with 150mm lens. More expensive but it's from a shop that I like and a brand I recognize. $550. I have to call and ask tomorrow if it has any film holders or accessories.

3. $100 Calumet monorail body, and pick up other pieces separately.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Christopher Walrath · Aug 6, 2010

The Calumet might be the least expensive 'in', depending on the accessories that come with the B&J.

I cannot speak to that particular camera, but if the manufacturing is anything similar to that employed in my 1946 Press camera by that company (which has held up rather well: the camera, not the company) then I would not hesitate, given you would have enough pieces and parts to get started. Gotta leave pocket room for the film, you know.

lewis-richards · Aug 9, 2010

I have a ShenHao PTB 54 and I personaly love the images that I produce with it. It's my first large format camera and a definate contendor for a start up camera. Really enjoyable to use, light and easy to set up from the folded position.

Rick A · Aug 9, 2010

apconan said:
I've got three options right now:

1. Burke and james 4x5 format camera with Rapax/ Wollensak lens: series IV - Velostigmat 9 1/2" f6.3. I'm skeptical because I can't find too much information on the camera/lens, but I would get this as long as it allows for good movement, and can take a lens board that isn't uncommon.

Can anyone tell from this photo?
Comes with film holders too, $200 for package.

2. A Toyo monorail with 150mm lens. More expensive but it's from a shop that I like and a brand I recognize. $550. I have to call and ask tomorrow if it has any film holders or accessories.

3. $100 Calumet monorail body, and pick up other pieces separately.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I have two of the Calumet's, and they are nearly indestructable, have good range of movements, and hold their resale value. A hundred bucks is the average price of them.

The B&J sounds like a great deal, already has most of what you need, you'll spend more than that to gear up the Calumet.

If you have the budget, the Toyo is far better than the Calumet, and if they give you extras that would be super.

photomc · Aug 9, 2010

Not sure if you plan to enlarge or contact print...if contact print, then consider a Burke and James with a 5x7 and 4x5 back, can be found around a little bit more than $200 and still give you the chance to enlarge and contact print. I went from a Crown Graphic (4x5) to a 5x7 B&J to 8x10 pretty quickly. Still prefer 8x10 (and 7x11) over the smaller formats, but 5x7 still holds a special place - contact prints that size are just about perfect.

Recommendations for first view camera

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