Recommendation for lens for 4x5; equivelent to 28mm in 35mm format?

craig.knapp1 · Jan 14, 2012

Hi, I am 50, yet new to 4x5 photography. I have an Omega 45D camera with a 240mm Schneider Tele-Arton lens. I sort of have a collection of equipment that uses Schneider lenses including the Kodak Retina iiic, various Franka (folders), and even some Schneider enlarging lenses...so keeping with my Schneider glass, I am looking for recommendations/confirmation of my best guess, as to a lens for 4x5 which gives an approximate horizontal view equivalent to a 28mm lens for 35mm format (and allows for moderate camera movements). I am a bit confused by Schneider Optics website (vintage lens data found under the INFO tab) because of "image circle", angle of view, and format sizes.

I believe candidates include (for B&W film):
Symmar-S 120mm with its 70 degree field of view would yield a 35mm format equivalent between 24-28mm, but I do not see this lens for sale very often.

Symmar 5.6 100mm lens.

Angulon 6.8 120mm lens

Any help is appreciated, as I am Stationed in Germany and will likely be purchasing a lens on-line, thus unable to verify my estimates of "coverage" before buying.

Thank you.

Craig Knapp

ic-racer · Jan 14, 2012

The perfect match would be a 100mm lens, however, most 100mm lenses out there are for 6x9cm format, rather than 4x5in. Schneider's 100mm Symmar-S is a perfect example. It is for 6x9cm, not 4x5. Since they don't make a perfect match for you, I'd go with something they do make. How about a Schneider Super Angulon 90. That is a very popular lens. Probably 1/3 the 4x5 community here has one or had one at some time. It will be like a 25mm lens on a 35mm camera.

craig.knapp1 · Jan 14, 2012

RE: IC-RACR

It appears the Super Angulon 90 has a 100 degree of view, which seems to be between a 35mm format 14mm and 18mm lens? If this is true the 90mm Super Angulon is considerably wider than my goal of a 28mm lens on a 35mm camera.

Craig Knapp

krb · Jan 14, 2012

craig.knapp1 said:
RE: IC-RACR

It appears the Super Angulon 90 has a 100 degree of view, which seems to be between a 35mm format 14mm and 18mm lens? If this is true the 90mm Super Angulon is considerably wider than my goal of a 28mm lens on a 35mm camera.

The spreadsheet I use for this type of calculation tells me that 28mm on 135 is 99mm on 4x5.

When you say 100 degree view, are you sure you are reading it correctly? There is a difference between having a lens that projects 100 degrees vs having a lens that projects a 100 degree view onto a 4x5 negative. The lens needs to project a wider image than is being captured so that you will have room for lens movements, after all.

Roger Thoms · Jan 15, 2012

I'll second ic-racers recommendation on the 90mm SA, one of my favorites. I've always felt it was a little closer to 24mm on 135.

Roger

LJH · Jan 15, 2012

Don't mistake angle of coverage for angle of view. Put simply, you're taking a 4x5" section out of the image circle created by the angle of coverage.

Ian Grant · Jan 15, 2012

A 90mm lens on 5x4 is close to a 28mm on 35mm and there's plenty about at good prices. Both the Super Angulons and Grandagons are excellent performers you need to decide whether you want the faster f5.6 SA or the f8 SA or the f4.5 Grandagon or f6.8.

Calumet branded Caltar W 90mm's are also good value, they rebadged the SA and Grandagon.

BTW if I use a 90mm on my 6x17 camera the angle of view is wider than on a 5x4 camera, format determines the actually field of view, image circle determines the maximum potential angle of view.

Ian

craig.knapp1 · Jan 15, 2012

151419JAN12

Thanks to all who have helped. I think I was confused between angle of coverage and angle of view.....Looks like the 90mm Super Angulon is the way to go.

Craig Knapp

al5256 · Jan 15, 2012

Hi,
While discussing the focal length there is a problem using wide angles on view cameras with normal bellows systems. I will be also buying a 4x5 field camera and doing some research on the lenses. Ill be getting a Grandagon N 90mm f/6.8 which is equivalent to 28mm on 35. Most of the users of view cameras advised that I have to use a bag bellows to get full advantage of movements. I wonder what APUG users think about this. Thanks.

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 15, 2012

Depends on the camera, but most field cameras with tapered bellows can handle a 90mm lens (unless it's one of the latest ultrawide versions that allow for extreme movements, like the Schneider 90/5.6 SA-XL) without a bag bellows. At most you might want a recessed lensboard, if that's easier than using a bag bellows on your particular camera, but it may not even be necessary.

A camera with a square bellows might not be as flexible with a 90mm lens focused at infinity.

L Gebhardt · Jan 15, 2012

Also, keep in mind that 35mm is a wider aspect ratio than 4x5. The normal way of comparing the diagonals to determine equivalence may not work for you. Do you normally crop your 35mm film to 8x10, or do you plan on cropping your 4x5 down to 2:3 ratio?

Terry Christian · Jan 15, 2012

When I bought my Graflex Crown Graphic 4x5 press camera, it came outfitted with a Graphex (Wollensak) 135mm Optar, which is the "normal" lens for it; and a 90mm Optar, which I believe to be the intended wide-angle lens for it in the same way that 28mm is usually used for a 35mm camera.

craig.knapp1 · Jan 15, 2012

I notice talk of comparing diagonal to diagonal, for me, this is hard to grasp since I do not concentrate on what is being captured "diagonally" when taking a photo, I usually am concerned with either the width or height of what is being photographed. I have always liked the 28mm lens on 35mm film, and generally may crop to 8x10 when printing, OR print something like 7x10 and mat the print. Therefore, when I consider "comparing" a lens view in one format to that of another film format, I am considering the "width" of the scene that can be photographed....not the diagonal measurement. Perhaps I am looking at it in a funny way, but that is the way I see the issue. What lens in 4x5 gives the equivalent view (width of the scene that can be photographed) as a 28mm lens on 35mm film? Somehow, I still think the 90mm Super-Angulon is a bit wider that 28mm on 35mm film...am I wrong?

Again, since I will buying a lens online, I will not have the luxury of testing before purchasing, and I do not know anyone else shooting 4x5.

I will be shooting scenery and buildings in and around Germany, so I do not want to introduce too much distortion as a result of having a lens that is too wide.

Craig Knapp

Ian Grant · Jan 15, 2012

David A. Goldfarb said:
Depends on the camera, but most field cameras with tapered bellows can handle a 90mm lens (unless it's one of the latest ultrawide versions that allow for extreme movements, like the Schneider 90/5.6 SA-XL) without a bag bellows. At most you might want a recessed lensboard, if that's easier than using a bag bellows on your particular camera, but it may not even be necessary.

A camera with a square bellows might not be as flexible with a 90mm lens focused at infinity.

I'm not sure about that differance between tapered and square bellows. My experience is that square bellows can offer greater room for movements, I've 4 cameras with square bellows and a couple with rapered.

A 90mm f6.8 Gradagon is my main 90mm and works fine on all my cameras as does a 75mm f8 Super Angulon.

I could see issues with older US 5x4 cameras like Agfa Ansco's and Kodak's etc where the bellows may not compress enough and a recessed board might be needed with a 90mm. These cameras tend to have quite limited movements compared to modern lighter weight field cameras.

Ian

Two23 · Jan 15, 2012

I'm using a Super Angulon 90mm f5.6 on my Chamonix 45n and love it. I think I once read it was St. Ansel's favorite lens.

Kent in SD

L Gebhardt · Jan 15, 2012

craig.knapp1 said:
I notice talk of comparing diagonal to diagonal, for me, this is hard to grasp since I do not concentrate on what is being captured "diagonally" when taking a photo, I usually am concerned with either the width or height of what is being photographed. I have always liked the 28mm lens on 35mm film, and generally may crop to 8x10 when printing, OR print something like 7x10 and mat the print. Therefore, when I consider "comparing" a lens view in one format to that of another film format, I am considering the "width" of the scene that can be photographed....not the diagonal measurement. Perhaps I am looking at it in a funny way, but that is the way I see the issue. What lens in 4x5 gives the equivalent view (width of the scene that can be photographed) as a 28mm lens on 35mm film? Somehow, I still think the 90mm Super-Angulon is a bit wider that 28mm on 35mm film...am I wrong?

Again, since I will buying a lens online, I will not have the luxury of testing before purchasing, and I do not know anyone else shooting 4x5.

I will be shooting scenery and buildings in and around Germany, so I do not want to introduce too much distortion as a result of having a lens that is too wide.

Craig Knapp

If you want the same width then you want to compare the horizontal dimension, so 36mm (width of a 35mm frame) vs 120mm (width of a 4x5 frame on my film holder) gives you a 3.33 multiplier. So 28mm lens will have a 28x3.33 93mm focal length. To get the same image aspect ratio you will need to crop the top and bottom of the 4x5 image down to 80mm from about 94mm.

So it looks like you do want a 90mm lens.

L Gebhardt · Jan 15, 2012

I should also add that if you usually printed your 35mm film as 8x10 then the multiplier would be about 3.88 (93mm/24mm) so a 110 would be the most appropriate replacement.

Dan Fromm · Jan 15, 2012

craig.knapp1 said:
I notice talk of comparing diagonal to diagonal, for me, this is hard to grasp since I do not concentrate on what is being captured "diagonally" when taking a photo, I usually am concerned with either the width or height of what is being photographed. I have always liked the 28mm lens on 35mm film, and generally may crop to 8x10 when printing, OR print something like 7x10 and mat the print. Therefore, when I consider "comparing" a lens view in one format to that of another film format, I am considering the "width" of the scene that can be photographed....not the diagonal measurement. Perhaps I am looking at it in a funny way, but that is the way I see the issue. What lens in 4x5 gives the equivalent view (width of the scene that can be photographed) as a 28mm lens on 35mm film? Somehow, I still think the 90mm Super-Angulon is a bit wider that 28mm on 35mm film...am I wrong?

Again, since I will buying a lens online, I will not have the luxury of testing before purchasing, and I do not know anyone else shooting 4x5.

I will be shooting scenery and buildings in and around Germany, so I do not want to introduce too much distortion as a result of having a lens that is too wide.

Craig Knapp

The 35 mm frame's dimensions are 24 mm x 36 mm. The nominal 4" x 5" frame's dimensions are usually 95 mm x 120 mm. Calculate away.

There are many on-line databases that list large format lenses' coverage. Visit, e.g., www.largeformatphotography.info and look around. For modern (post-WW II) lenses manufacturers' coverage claims are usually reliable.

By the way, that forum has active participants in Germany. Sign up and ask for help from them. You just might find one near you.

Your enthusiasm is wonderful, your impatience isn't. You're only 50, may have time to educate yourself and take many pictures before you die. So go slow. Before you spend more money on gear, buy a good book on LF photography. e.g., Steve Simmons' Using The View Camera or Leslie Strobe's View Camera Technique, and study it. You said you're "stationed in Germany" so if the APO system is still running you should be able to buy a copy through abebooks.com, alibris.com, or amazon.com for quite a low delivered price. Is the APO system still running? I found it useful when I was stationed in Germany.

Dan Fromm · Jan 15, 2012

One other thing. 35 mm maps closely to only one larger format, "2x3". Don't get hung up on exact equivalences.

craig.knapp1 · Jan 15, 2012

thanks

Thank you all...got it. 90mm looks the way to go.

I have learned quite a bit in the past 2 days. Initially, I did not understand how Schneider lenses (super angulons) all had a 100 degree field of view, despite having different focal lengths, 90mm, 110, and 120mm. I realize now that the Image Circle is a determining factor, which with 35mm and 120mm (formats I am used to), the size of the image circle is irrelevant to the user (unless using a Perspective Control lens I guess), and is not normally even published/considered.

I apologize for my ignorance of 4x5.

Thanks again.

Craig Knapp

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 15, 2012

Ian Grant said:
I could see issues with older US 5x4 cameras like Agfa Ansco's and Kodak's etc where the bellows may not compress enough and a recessed board might be needed with a 90mm. These cameras tend to have quite limited movements compared to modern lighter weight field cameras.

Ian

That's the sort of thing I had in mind, and maybe the old-style Omega/Toyo monorails. If I'm using a 90 on my Sinar, I tend to switch to the bag bellows, since it's so easy to swap bellows on a Sinar, but in most real-world situations I'd expect a 4x5" camera to be able to deal with a 90mm lens.

Ralph Javins · Jan 15, 2012

Good morning, Craig Knapp, David Goldfarb, et al;

Gentlemen, thank you. While I have had an intuitive feeling for selecting a lens that will be similar as one on another format, I have not had specific points for reference and justification for my selection. Now I do; thank you.

As has been mentioned in the past, while I have been working with photography for a long time (is it really over 50 years now?), getting a 4 by 5 SINAR F1 view camera just three years ago very quickly demonstrated how much I still did not really know about photography. Having a view camera that expects me to know EVERYTHING about how to adjust it, select an appropriate lens, evaluate the scene and lighting, and so many other things, has been a truly humbling experience. Learning just how much the modern smaller format camera designers and manufacturers have done in making so many of the decisions for us, to greatly simplify and make photography easier for us, really came as a true revelation to me, when the SINAR demonstrated to me just how much I did not yet know.

MattKing · Jan 15, 2012

Just a bit of devil's advocate here.

Most of the focal length comparisons referred to here are, IMHO, assuming that one is shooting in landscape orientation, and that the horizontal dimension is most important.

If one tends to compose and print horizontal images to a 4x5 aspect ratio, than it may make more sense to think of the 35mm film as having a frame size of 24mm x 30mm, and to use 30mm instead of 36mm in one's calculations. This would lead one to a 112mm lens instead of 90mm.

Ian Grant · Jan 16, 2012

Trust you to confuse things Matt

I shoot with a 75mm lens on 120 Roll film so a normal lens you might assume, yes it is with regard to the Vertical aspect of the Format just a touch wider than the 80mm on m y Rolleiflex. However the Horizontal aspect of 6x17 is rather different and in fact is a touch wider than the same 75mm lens on a 5x4 camera.

Dan Fromm is right in saying "Don't get hung up on exact equivalences" it's more about knowing your equipment particularly lenses so that you control the look and feel of your images and in particular the perspective. This really leads on to how people shoot to fit the film format which comes with experience.

What I'm saying though is that Matt's right, you shoot to the constricting dimensions of your chosen format and that does vary slightly if you move from horizontal (landscape) to vertical (portrait).

Ian

ic-racer · Jan 22, 2012

There are a lot of variables. The Schneider product info is just a guideline. There will be a big difference in one's conversion factor depending on how much overlap of the image you put on the easel blades, or if you print full frame.

Unless these things are measured, you might as well just guess the equivalent angle of view.

Recommendation for lens for 4x5; equivelent to 28mm in 35mm format?

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Recommendation for lens for 4x5; equivelent to 28mm in 35mm format?

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