Recommend an IR Filter / source for me please!

Hello,

I am awaiting a shipment of 25 sheets of 4x5 ir820c IR film, and also a couple of rolls in 120 format.

I am trying to decide on, and source, a 67mm filter for use with the film.

I looked at some pics on http://www.onecachet.com/sfrancis_ir820_shots.htm, and something similar in IR transmission to the Wratten 87 filter looks to create the effect I am hoping for.

Can anyone recommend a particular make of 67mm filter which is not too outrageously expensive, and which can be ordered over the net?

I'm hoping to make use of the materials the weekend after next.

Thanks for any comments....

Also, on a related note, I understand there is some focus shift which will come into play w/ this film.

Neither my 4x5 or Rolleiflex SL66 have any kind of IR markings, as to focusing, so I guess I'm on my own to correct or not correct.

If I ignored this altogether, would landscapes be seriously hindered? I am not looking for razor sharp images. Does anyone have any tips for winging it with this IR film?

I've got a B+W 092 which ha a 20-40x filter factor. B+W have thinner rings and seem better than tiffens and hoyas i've used in quality. The focus shift will vary depending on the lens. I contacted schnieder about my 150mm and they said i'd need to extend the bellows something like .5mm. Try 2 seconds at f22 in midday sun with the 092 filter. I've used the non-aura version. I'll post some new images later.

Heliopan make a number of IR filters in various sizes including 67mm.

If you need something fast, a Lee polyester 87 may be available at B&H. I use B+W 092 as it gives significant IR effect. The 093 just seems to cut more light without changing IR picture.

Make sure they don`t send the 87C as they screwed up my order.

Thanks for the suggestions.

After looking around, I settled on a Hoya R72.

The cutoff appears at about 720nm, and allows good transmission through the range of the ir820c film, which claims ir sensitivity up through 820nm.

I have another question.

For exposing, is metering the scene pretty much pointless? I mean, I assume I can do unfiltered metering, and then apply the huge filter factor, however, I'm assuming that what I meter is light that is not in the spectrum of the filter.

Any tips?

Hoya 72 is about the same as IlfodSFX/Cokin 09 or Wratten 89
Marco Pauck has a very good comparison of IR films and filters in his website
http://www.pauck.de/marco/photo/infrared/comparison_of_films/comparison_of_films.html
He has pretty good estimates for metering.

PS. Eric penderson suggest EI 12 for Maco IR820 with R72 filter
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~epederso/Photo/IR/Test.html

JeffD said:

Thanks for the suggestions.

After looking around, I settled on a Hoya R72.

The cutoff appears at about 720nm, and allows good transmission through the range of the ir820c film, which claims ir sensitivity up through 820nm.

I have another question.

For exposing, is metering the scene pretty much pointless? I mean, I assume I can do unfiltered metering, and then apply the huge filter factor, however, I'm assuming that what I meter is light that is not in the spectrum of the filter.

Any tips?

Click to expand...

90% of the people I hear talk about IR say metering is absolutely worthless...

However... You can easily meter the true IR if you've got a meter that's capable. The Gossen Luna Pro-F works great. Just meter through the filter. As long as you know the speed of the film without a filter, you're set. Last time I used Maco, I used a speed of 100 I think? Maybe 200? It's been a while... I meter through a Lee 87 and even made a small filter that fits the front of the meter. Perfect exposure every time... Even works as a flash meter with the Sunpak IR head...

I don't personally know of any other meters that work as well and I think spot metering may be a waste of time?

RichSBV said:

90% of the people I hear talk about IR say metering is absolutely worthless...

However... You can easily meter the true IR if you've got a meter that's capable. The Gossen Luna Pro-F works great. Just meter through the filter. As long as you know the speed of the film without a filter, you're set. Last time I used Maco, I used a speed of 100 I think? Maybe 200? It's been a while... I meter through a Lee 87 and even made a small filter that fits the front of the meter. Perfect exposure every time... Even works as a flash meter with the Sunpak IR head...

I don't personally know of any other meters that work as well and I think spot metering may be a waste of time?

Click to expand...

Interesting. I have a Gossen Luna Pro, but don't know if it is the F series. I wonder if that ability is only restricted to the F series.

I was just thinking of taking the general recommendations (like sunshine and haze, 1/125 at f/11) from the data sheet, and just applying the R72 filter factor.

Now, I am having trouble finding anything on the net' that might be a reasonable filter factor to use with this filter!

I had the same trouble a few years ago. Seems IR filter factors are a bit arbitrary and so many people have different techniques. I couldn't get reliable results until I figuired out that the LunaPro-F worked and verified it with the stated guied number of the Sunpak head and some test results.

I'm not sure if I ever tested my LunaPro with IR? There's a good chance it would work though. Right now, I'm not even sure where mine is? And it uses the old mercury battery...

A simple test would be to go outside on a bright Sunny day and try metering through the filter when set at the standard speed (100/200). See what it reads...

If you want, I can try to find my meter and compare the two. Unfortunately, we have different meters and different filters... But I have 3 Luna Pro F's and they all read the same so I would have some faith that most LunaPro's would also read the same...

It's worth trying and it might save you a lot of headaches...

The filter is a matter of preference and technique and they differ with the photographer's taste. You can use a Wratten 25 (red), 87, and 89B with the Macophot 820c IR film. As a starting point open up 3-5 stops with the 25 filter, 5-7 with the 87 filter...and I'm not sure about the 89B (haven't tested mine yet) but I believe 4-6 stops with that one (check with Robert Hall on that one).

Hope that helps...

S

Exposure for IR films varies widely (even wildly) depending on a number of factors including time of day, season, latitute, atmospheric conditions. There's a whole lot written about it, so I won't reinvent the wheel. I usually use a Wratten 25A equivalent (Tiffen) for Kodak HIE, and my "exposure index" is more of a ballpark estimate. (I make big brackets). I've had good exposure results rating it at 250, I've had good results rating it at 50, all depending on circumstances. If it's a hot, sunny day, you have a lot of IR bouncing around. Ditto if it's a bright, humid overcast day.

Filters and filter factors only affect the amount of ambient visible light you're recording. (Think about it -- your filter passes IR and blocks visible light.) The heavier filters record less of the visible spectrum and give you more "pure IR" exposure. They also increase image contrast as more and more visible light is screened out.

I get my best results by metering on the shadow side of the subject and bracketing toward overexposure. Have fun. (Sorry, my exclamation-point key is not working . . .)

Peter Gomena

I also have the Hoya R72 and have used it a real lot with Kodak infrared film. I have the 52mm mount for my Nikkor threads and found after some time that the size of this filter gave an advantage in that I could work out if it was going to be worth shooting IR film or not.

This is my self taught method:- apparently the filter is non see through, well that's not the case, you can see a little through it if you hold it between thumb and forefinger and then hold the filter close to your eye and block out as much light coming in from the sides as you can. Effectively I can block almost all light except for what comes through the filter.

What you do, is scan the view, looking for IR reflecting foliage. You will, after a very short time know if there is any reflected IR worth shooting. It takes a second to see this effect.

I have not found temperature to have any effect on IR film's ability to work or not to work. What I have found is the sunlight, it's angle, the cloudiness of the day, all contribute to whether or not you will be successful or not.

For what it's worth I believe that all factors on the Kodak sheet will work quite well at the lattitude that Rochester in America is at. Here in Melbourne Australia, about 8 kilometres from the 38th parallel of lattitude, things are different.

When I used Kodak IR film in Germany I noticed a real difference, however when I travelled down to Italy south of Rome I found that the film seemed to work out pretty much as it does here. Interestingly, halfway between Rome and Naples, lattitude wise, is where Melbourne would be if it was in the northern hemisphere.

I'll find some guidelines that I use for exposing my film, I never meter this film and haven't since the eighties, after I did an IR film course at our local Adult education centre.

Mick.

JeffD said:

Hello,

I am awaiting a shipment of 25 sheets of 4x5 ir820c IR film, and also a couple of rolls in 120 format.

I am trying to decide on, and source, a 67mm filter for use with the film.

I looked at some pics on http://www.onecachet.com/sfrancis_ir820_shots.htm, and something similar in IR transmission to the Wratten 87 filter looks to create the effect I am hoping for.

Can anyone recommend a particular make of 67mm filter which is not too outrageously expensive, and which can be ordered over the net?

I'm hoping to make use of the materials the weekend after next.

Thanks for any comments....

Click to expand...

I have not used the Maco film, but I find that the Hoya 25A red filter works very well with Kodak HIE infra-red B&W film. This site may be of some use to you.
www.kathyharcom.com

I have used a Lee polyester filter with MACO IR 820c, and it works great. If you haven't got a square filter system already, get a Lee!

On my little Bessa-L 35mm camera I bought a Heliopan 695 filter - they're about the only ones who make IR filters with 39mm threads. The results from the new 820/400 35mm film were astonishing, even to me!

If you have a gelatin filter holder you can take two frames of unexposed and processed color slide film and layer them up in the holder. It will approximate the response of an R72 filter. A quick and very effective way to get IR done.

Most of the mail order houses stock filters for IR photography. Your choice of filter will depend on the effect you want and the film you use. Many of the classic IR photos were made using an ordinary red filter (Wratten 25 (A) or 29 (F)). You will get the expected dark sky and light foliage with these. To eliminate all the visible light, you can go to the Wratten 89 (or 89B) or its equivalent. With the right film, you may even be able to use the Wratten 87, 87C, or their equivalents. The film is important here. The Kodak IR films were sensitive to light out to a bit longer than 1 micron. Many modern IR films from other manufacturers cut off around 900mu. Filters like the 87 may not work with these films, and filters like the 89 may require long exposures and not give the expected results. For your initial experiments I would suggest a dark red visual filter, like the 29. If you only have an ordinary red filter, like the 25, use it. Bracket like crazy. Exposure gets real strange with IR.

A Red Filter is a good place to start & may be enough.

It's interesting to note that Simon Marsden only uses a red & polarizer together for his IR work which is pretty impressive.

Peter

Hi, thanks to all for responses to my query. I got my materials, and Hoya R72 filter. First thing I did was dig out my old Gossen Luna Pro, as i had read in a few places that these were supposedly sensitive to IR. I metered from behind the filter, and with no filter. I showed about a 4 stop difference. This is interesting, in that, Maco's datasheet says to try rating the film at ISO 6 when metering unfiltered, which is pretty much 4 stops less than the the published speed of 100.

I also have a Pentax spot meter, but I haven't tested that one out....

I fiddled with IR a while ago, and a 720nm filter was my choice then (Wratten in a Cokin hlder)
At the time measuring with the camera was a PITA so I guesstimated exposures based on a table someone gave me. Now I realize it was sorta sunny 4 for ISO100 film.

I'm getting ready to retake semi-IR again (Ilford SFX) but this time I'll do it in a Rangefinder (easier to compose and meter) and meter as EI 12. Now all I have to find is one of those series V or VI adapters for my camera.....

JeffD said:

Hi, thanks to all for responses to my query. I got my materials, and Hoya R72 filter. First thing I did was dig out my old Gossen Luna Pro, as i had read in a few places that these were supposedly sensitive to IR. I metered from behind the filter, and with no filter. I showed about a 4 stop difference. This is interesting, in that, Maco's datasheet says to try rating the film at ISO 6 when metering unfiltered, which is pretty much 4 stops less than the the published speed of 100.

I also have a Pentax spot meter, but I haven't tested that one out....

Click to expand...

Mick Fagan said:

...When I used Kodak IR film in Germany I noticed a real difference, however when I travelled down to Italy south of Rome I found that the film seemed to work out pretty much as it does here. Interestingly, halfway between Rome and Naples, lattitude wise, is where Melbourne would be if it was in the northern hemisphere...

Click to expand...

Mick, what were the differences? I have only used IR film here in Norway (about 60°N), so what changes can I expect if I take it travelling?

Last time I did some IR was in Ecuador (right over the Equator) and at 3,000m above sea level.
From the word of the Kodak tech rep at the time HIE with a 720nm filter (Wratten 89B) had to be rated as 50 but it could be used as high as 100 since the amount of IR light filtered was a lot smaller than at sea level and even smaller than at hgher latitudes.

Ohter thing I noticed over there was temp of color, when I had the pics developed here in the US they had a horrible bluish cast....

Ole said:

Mick, what were the differences? I have only used IR film here in Norway (about 60°N), so what changes can I expect if I take it travelling?

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