Recommend a new B&W paper for me

Lee Shively · Dec 1, 2007

I'm now down to my last two boxes of 11x14 Forte Polywarmtone FB. It will be a sad day when it is all gone.

I know Ilford MG Warmtone FB is a fine paper but it now costs over $100 a box. I can swing that for an occasional print but not as my standard paper.

I'm thinking of switching to a neutral toned paper. I've used Ilford MG FB and I liked it. I still have quite a bit of the RC version on hand. My only objection to it is that it has very little response to selenium toner. I guess I can get over that if necessary but would like some alternatives.

What I want is a glossy surface, white base, neutral (not cold) tone, variable contrast and a paper speed in the neighborhood of Forte PW (which I think is ISO 160 w/o filtration). It would be nice if it would respond to Kodak Rapid Selenium toner with the ability to control the tone desired.

Suggestions?

Guillaume Zuili · Dec 1, 2007

Varycon and Fomatone Classic are an option. Cheap and tone well.
Guillaume

Removed Account · Dec 1, 2007

If you want to pick up more Forte paper, when I checked the other week B&H still had it in stock.

- Justin

JBrunner · Dec 1, 2007

See if you can get Freestyle to start importing ADOX papers.

Bruce Osgood · Dec 1, 2007

When I left the Forte stable I bounced around a while trying this and that and settled on Kentmeres' FineArt VC paper for now. It isn't quite what I'm looking for yet but comes in a good second.

A lot of what you ask for in a paper is determined by the developer you use. I'm using the Ilford PQ formula found here on APUG and it delivers luscious blacks and highlight detail just short of paper white.

I think the Kentmere line is sold in small quantities as well as 50 and 100 sheet boxes so it might be worth you while to tray a sample.

dpurdy · Dec 1, 2007

I just went with the Oriental VC WT FB. Less expensive than ilford WT but I think it is very nice paper. You might try the Oriental neutral tone paper if you really are set on giving up WT.

Trevor Crone · Dec 1, 2007

Fomatone MG Classic and Adox Polygrade, when you can find the damn stuff!

Come on Martin Reed please start stocking Adox Polygrade, an excellent replacement for Forte's Polywarmtone.

Dave Miller · Dec 1, 2007

dpurdy said:
I just went with the Oriental VC WT FB. Less expensive than ilford WT but I think it is very nice paper. You might try the Oriental neutral tone paper if you really are set on giving up WT.

I am under the impression that Oriental ceased production some time ago.:confused:

JBrunner · Dec 1, 2007

Dave Miller said:
I am under the impression that Oriental ceased production some time ago.:confused:

I think they could call it "reconstituted Oriental"

I have heard it's not quite the same stuff, but I have no experience to verify that. I'm not sure of the actual story. Perhaps someone who has used the "new" and old could chime in.

It's here:
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_prod.php?cat_id=&pid=453

Gary Holliday · Dec 1, 2007

Trevor Crone said:
Fomatone MG Classic and Adox Polygrade, when you can find the damn stuff!

Come on Martin Reed please start stocking Adox Polygrade, an excellent replacement for Forte's Polywarmtone.

Which paper is that?

Not sure how Adox are coming along with the Polywarmtone replacement, but something close would be superb!

http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX_Papers/ADOX_Papers/Polywarmton.html

jeroldharter · Dec 1, 2007

Kentmere Fineprint VC

I think Kentmere FP VC FB would fit the bill except that it is about a stop faster than Forte. It is certainly not a warm toned paper. I like Kentmere FP. It is easy to work with: responds well to selenium toner and dries flat. Certainly not warm-toned though.

If you want a white base with a more deep-chocolate black, and don't need sizes larger than 11x14, check out Zone VI paper at Calumet.

pentaxuser · Dec 1, 2007

Lee. Just as a matter of interest is this the 100 sheets in a box size? I found Ilford Warmtone FB in 11x14( unusual in the U.K.) and it was the equivalent of $100 a box. Given the recent drop of $ against the £, I'd say that at $100 a box this still represents good value by U.K. standards. If you visit the U.K., there little chance of a suntan and it sounds as if there's every chance of losing the tan you've got if you were to examine U.K. photographic prices.

You could shop around if you had a car but at $10 a gallon, it's expensive.

pentaxuser

Dave Miller · Dec 1, 2007

JBrunner said:
I think they could call it "reconstituted Oriental"

I have heard it's not quite the same stuff, but I have no experience to verify that. I'm not sure of the actual story. Perhaps someone who has used the "new" and old could chime in.

It's here:
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_prod.php?cat_id=&pid=453

If it's half as good as the original, it should be magic. Wonder when we will get it here.

Dave Miller · Dec 1, 2007

jeroldharter said:
I think Kentmere FP VC FB would fit the bill except that it is about a stop faster than Forte. It is certainly not a warm toned paper. I like Kentmere FP. It is easy to work with: responds well to selenium toner and dries flat. Certainly not warm-toned though.

If you want a white base with a more deep-chocolate black, and don't need sizes larger than 11x14, check out Zone VI paper at Calumet.

You are quite right Jerold about it not being warm tone, but it is so responsive to toning that you can make warm tone images that sit very well on it's white base.

An example:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Trevor Crone · Dec 1, 2007

Gary Holliday said:
Which paper is that?

Not sure how Adox are coming along with the Polywarmtone replacement, but something close would be superb!

http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX_Papers/ADOX_Papers/Polywarmton.html

From your link:

"Coated on a new 280g oxygene bleached support the new ADOX Fine Print Polygrade Warmtone paper is even more brilliant than the predator Classic Polywarmtone."

Retrophotographic did stock it and listed it as Adox Polywarmtone but when I received the item it was marked up as 'polygrade'. Very warm on a white base.

Gary Holliday · Dec 1, 2007

That's what happens when I scan-read :rolleyes:

dpurdy · Dec 1, 2007

JBrunner said:
I think they could call it "reconstituted Oriental"

I have heard it's not quite the same stuff, but I have no experience to verify that. I'm not sure of the actual story. Perhaps someone who has used the "new" and old could chime in.

It's here:
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_prod.php?cat_id=&pid=453

I was unaware of the new/old issue. I have been trying it out off and on for a couple of years as I was using Ilford WT and looking for something better. At one point I liked the Ilford better because it was warmer but then it seemed to me that the Ilford changed and became less warm and at that point it seemed like the Oriental and the Ilford were virtually the same paper.

In this last year I have been trying several papers becase I knew I wanted to buy a large batch and I was less satisfied with the Forte as it seemed to have changed and in the end the choice was down to two papers: Oriental WT or Foma WT. They are very similar except that in my warm tone developer (that I don't often use) the Foma took on kind of an unpleasent lemon yellow color and then Foma became more expensive.

So still not ready to make a decision I got a box of 11x14 Oriental from B&H about 3 months ago and it printed very well.. not as warm as I like but nothing is quite the color I like anymore. So I used that up and last week just got a large batch of 8x10 and 11x14 Oriental from Free Style. All the same emulsion. per size. I opened it right up and printed those images I posted on the delta 3200 priase thread and it looks good to me. I am very happy with the very smooth (though not quite) surface, the warmth (more noticable when next to neutral tone prints) the depth of the tonality (nothing compares to the early 80s portriga). And I am probably going to increase the size of my holds of this paper before the year is done.
Dennis

JBrunner · Dec 1, 2007

dpurdy said:
I was unaware of the new/old issue. I have been trying it out off and on for a couple of years as I was using Ilford WT and looking for something better. At one point I liked the Ilford better because it was warmer but then it seemed to me that the Ilford changed and became less warm and at that point it seemed like the Oriental and the Ilford were virtually the same paper.

In this last year I have been trying several papers becase I knew I wanted to buy a large batch and I was less satisfied with the Forte as it seemed to have changed and in the end the choice was down to two papers: Oriental WT or Foma WT. They are very similar except that in my warm tone developer (that I don't often use) the Foma took on kind of an unpleasent lemon yellow color and then Foma became more expensive.

So still not ready to make a decision I got a box of 11x14 Oriental from B&H about 3 months ago and it printed very well.. not as warm as I like but nothing is quite the color I like anymore. So I used that up and last week just got a large batch of 8x10 and 11x14 Oriental from Free Style. All the same emulsion. per size. I opened it right up and printed those images I posted on the delta 3200 priase thread and it looks good to me. I am very happy with the very smooth (though not quite) surface, the warmth (more noticable when next to neutral tone prints) the depth of the tonality (nothing compares to the early 80s portriga). And I am probably going to increase the size of my holds of this paper before the year is done.
Dennis

As I said, I'm not sure of the exact story. It very well could be the same. All I know is that it dissapeared for a while, and somewhere, upon its re-emergence I read something about how it was different. Perhaps better? IDK.

Black Dog · Dec 1, 2007

I've used Forte since 1999 and I still have a fair bit left, but I'm trying ADOX Fineprint Vario Classic [very nice, though not as warm-will try some different devs] and Fomatone MG [also nice , but too early to really form an opinion on it so far]. After maxing out my Visa card buying more Fortezo/PWT it looks like MGWT is the best option-John Blakemore mentions it in his B+W Workshop book.

dpurdy · Dec 1, 2007

Ok I just did a bit more research and a print test. I found the previous 50 sheet 11x14 Oriental WT FC FB empty box and paper work and I actually bought it from freestyle in early June and it is the same emulsion that I just got from them last week. so no news there

However I have a small amount of fresh Ilford WT VC FB on hand. I mixed fresh cold tone developer and set up a negative in the enlarger and made a print on half a sheet of Oriental WT and half a sheet of Ilford WT. I exposed them at the same time and processed them together and I swear to you that there is no difference. Same exact speed, same exact color, same exact contrast, and even the same exact surface. the only difference I did find was when turning the prints over and looking just at the paper the Oriental was just a tiny tad bit less bright. On the print side I could see no difference between the whites.

So I don't know the meaning of that but I see no advantage to paying more for Ilford.

walter23 · Dec 1, 2007

I dunno about all the technical requirements you have, but I quite like kentmere fineprint VC. Glossy fibre, pretty neutral, white base. I haven't selenium toned it yet.

Lee Shively said:
I
What I want is a glossy surface, white base, neutral (not cold) tone, variable contrast and a paper speed in the neighborhood of Forte PW (which I think is ISO 160 w/o filtration). It would be nice if it would respond to Kodak Rapid Selenium toner with the ability to control the tone desired.

Suggestions?

Lee Shively · Dec 2, 2007

Thanks for the responses. I have used Oriental Warmtone but it was some time ago, I don't remember too much about how it processed but it did look pretty nice. I probably ought to give Kentmere a try since I can get it from Freestyle. I might be wrong, but was Kentmere ever the manufacturer for Cache or Luminos brand papers that used to be available in the US? I tried the warmtone papers in both those brands and really disliked them--especially the Cache.

The price of Ilford Warmtone, last time I looked, is over $100 for a box of 50 11x14 sheets from Freestyle. If it was 100 sheet boxes, I would jump on that deal!

Silverhead · Dec 3, 2007

Kentmere was indeed the manufacturer of Luminos papers. Luminos never made anything, AFAIK.

Recommend a new B&W paper for me

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