Recommend a good "budget" medium format?

Matus Kalisky · Apr 13, 2015

I had the Pentax 645n for a short while (had to return it because of a problem) - felt really good in hand. But I would advice you to a look at the prices of other lenses - sooner or later you will want to get some more and thanks to digital versions the lenses (in particular the wide angle ones) command rather high prices. In that regard a Bronica would probably be a cheaper choice in the long run. The Pentax would also be a good choice if you later want to add some telephoto lenses - there should be a few in 300 and 400 mm focal length.

flavio81 · Apr 13, 2015

leicarfcam said:
I disagree with this statement. The Yashica Mat's with the Yashinon lens and the Minolta Autocords with Rokkor lens are some of the finest TLR's made and will stand alongside a Rolleiflex and Rolleicord any day.. One of my favorites is the Yashica D..

Build wise they are every bit as good as the Rollei's.

I disagree.

I have owned some Yashica TLRs and the build quality is decidedly inferior to the german equivalent which is the Rolleicord. Which I own.

And the Rolleiflex quality is even better, and I dare to say they have the highest build quality of all production cameras, save for the Zeiss Ikon Contarex and similar.

Optics are just fine in all those cameras as long as the lens is 4-element. 3-lens elements can be very good in some cases, and with stopping down to f8-11. For example I had a Ricoh Auto 66 with a 3-element lens that was really good (when stopped down, of course).

But really good 4-element lenses, such as the Schneider Xenar 75/3.5 in some Rolleicords, are good even wide open.

flavio81 · Apr 13, 2015

pentaxuser said:
I suppose there might be something different when you move to 1/500th but I am not sure that what governs achievement of a 1/500th sec speed means that it creates problems for the cameras that has been suggested

I have an Agfa Isolette I which has 1/25th; 1/50th and 1/200th speeds and I cannot say that the highest speed affects the camera's handling. My 1/200th is as smooth as the 1/25th.

If there was a 1/500th would this create problems that is inherent in any 1/500th? I doubt it would.

pentaxuser

Hi Pentaxuser,

The 1/500 speed requires a shutter spring with double the force. You can even feel this when engaging 1/500 and cocking the shutter.
Next time you see an Agfa Rekord III with the Synchro-Compur shutter, try it.

So what happens? The shutter shock makes the movable front element of the lens "twist" a little bit, blurring the image. Perhaps because the (new, replacement) grease in the helicoid of the lens should have been more viscous, so my fault perhaps.

Anyways, the film flatness of the 6x9 agfa folders wasn't so good as well. All in all what I got, and which has correspondence with some 36MP scans of agfa Record III negatives i saw on the 'net, is that the resolution of the camera is fantastic compared with 35mm and also compared with 6x4.5 negatives, but it is still not using to the max the potential resolution of the 6x9 format, particularly on the corners. And I blame on this, in #1, the film flatness, and in #2, the fact that the lens is a front-cell-focusing type, and thus it will suffer at some shooting distances.

removedacct1 · Apr 13, 2015

The Minolta Autocord is an excellent TLR with a very sharp lens when closed down to f8 - f16: see this example.

leicarfcam · Apr 13, 2015

flavio81 said:
I disagree.

I have owned some Yashica TLRs and the build quality is decidedly inferior to the german equivalent which is the Rolleicord. Which I own.

And the Rolleiflex quality is even better, and I dare to say they have the highest build quality of all production cameras

Exactly what way are Rolleiflex cameras better build quality? A lot of people say they are better than others but never explain why. So please explain..

Rolleiflex has a reputation which has been greatly exaggerated (just like Leica) over the years. They are just as susceptible to breakage and other issues as is any other camera..My Rolleiflex cameras are fine cameras but I cannot tell the difference between images taken with my Rolleiflex, Yashica Mat, or Minolta Autocord cameras.

I've been a camera tech since the 70's and have been inside many Rollei's, Yashicas, Autocords, as well as many others and with the exception of some obscure mom & pop brands they all use high quality parts that contrary to popular belief do not break easily.

I would however stay away from the models with the 3 element lens such as the Triotar and Yashikor if you want the best picture taking quality even though these lens are capable performers.

film_man · Apr 13, 2015

leicarfcam said:
Exactly what way are Rolleiflex cameras better build quality? A lot of people say they are better than others but never explain why. So please explain..

Rolleiflex has a reputation which has been greatly exaggerated (just like Leica) over the years. They are just as susceptible to breakage and other issues as is any other camera..My Rolleiflex cameras are fine cameras but I cannot tell the difference between images taken with my Rolleiflex, Yashica Mat, or Minolta Autocord cameras.

For most people the "build quality" comment means that when operating the camera it feels more substantial and smoother to operate. This may or may not necessarily mean better reliability as most people won't know what's inside but the overall experience is nicer. Resulting images are obviously unaffected by said built quality.

Matus Kalisky · Apr 13, 2015

Let's just keep this thread on topic. OP has stated that TLR is not what he is looking for, so a discussion whether Rolleiflex (or a Yashica for that matter) is or is not better built is not particularly relevant here, but it would make an interesting topic for a separate thread.

leicarfcam · Apr 13, 2015

Matus Kalisky said:
Let's just keep this thread on topic. OP has stated that TLR is not what he is looking for, so a discussion whether Rolleiflex (or a Yashica for that matter) is or is not better built is not particularly relevant here, but it would make an interesting topic for a separate thread.

With all due respect any thread isn't just about what the OP wants. There are others who may read this thread and have different ideas of what may or may not work for them. Some may prefer a TLR while others may prefer an interchangeable lens SLR MF model and reading what others say about each could help to convince them as to what to get..

Each thread can be educational for different people.

leicarfcam · Apr 13, 2015

film_man said:
For most people the "build quality" comment means that when operating the camera it feels more substantial and smoother to operate. This may or may not necessarily mean better reliability as most people won't know what's inside but the overall experience is nicer. Resulting images are obviously unaffected by said built quality.

I can understand that..

NJH · Apr 13, 2015

Well I have read and digested this thread and whilst I am not the OP I ended up buying an ETRS kit as my budget entry in medium format. The value for money and availability of lenses and other kit at low prices tipped it in the end. I already have and use a Seikonic 308s, I was close to getting an SQ-A but they must have got more popular as SQ stuff seems much more expensive here in the UK now than ETRS stuff. I fancy the rotary finder and another back next. Pack of Provia 100f in the fridge and the sun has started shining this week so great times ahead .

Paul Howell · Apr 13, 2015

leicarfcam said:
Exactly what way are Rolleiflex cameras better build quality? A lot of people say they are better than others but never explain why. So please explain..

Rolleiflex has a reputation which has been greatly exaggerated (just like Leica) over the years. They are just as susceptible to breakage and other issues as is any other camera..My Rolleiflex cameras are fine cameras but I cannot tell the difference between images taken with my Rolleiflex, Yashica Mat, or Minolta Autocord cameras.

I've been a camera tech since the 70's and have been inside many Rollei's, Yashicas, Autocords, as well as many others and with the exception of some obscure mom & pop brands they all use high quality parts that contrary to popular belief do not break easily.

I would however stay away from the models with the 3 element lens such as the Triotar and Yashikor if you want the best picture taking quality even though these lens are capable performers.

The Air Force had Rollicords and flexs along with a few Yashicas, Mat and LMs, I don't recall seeing any 124G, by the time the 124 came along TLRs were going out replaced by Konica Rapids and other press rangefinders. The Rollies held up with hard day to day use, the few Yashica's film advance failed. I don't know how we got the Yashica's I don't ever recall seeing a Yashica on the table of allowance. In terms of image I cannot fault Yashica, in the 80's and 90's I did a lot of book covers 70% were done with a 124.

I have a 124 with a jammed film advance, and a couple of Ds that just keep on trucking down the line. Given the price difference, I highly recommend Yashica or Minolta.

leicarfcam · Apr 13, 2015

PDH said:
The Air Force had Rollicords and flexs along with a few Yashicas, Mat and LMs, I don't recall seeing any 124G, by the time the 124 came along TLRs were going out replaced by Konica Rapids and other press rangefinders. The Rollies held up with hard day to day use, the few Yashica's film advance failed. I don't know how we got the Yashica's I don't ever recall seeing a Yashica on the table of allowance. In terms of image I cannot fault Yashica, in the 80's and 90's I did a lot of book covers 70% were done with a 124.

In the 70's while serving in the Navy we had a couple of Rolleiflex cameras and 1 Pentax 6x7 at the photo lab at NAS Memphis but mostly Canon, Nikon, and Topcon 35's. Most of the Rollei's were shelved due to various issues from overwork. This is where I learned camera repair and I still have one of the Rollei's. At Barber's Point we used all of the above including Mamiya Universal's and Yashica Mat's.

PDH said:
I have a 124 with a jammed film advance, and a couple of Ds that just keep on trucking down the line. Given the price difference, I highly recommend Yashica or Minolta.

Advance jams on the Rolleiflex and Yashica Mat's as well as other TLR's are fairly easy to fix. Most of these cameras used a wax based grease which when old and dry turn hard. Just a simple clean and relube will fix most issues here.

I agree. Many Rollei's have seen hard work and have a lot of wear whereas many Yashica Mat's and Minolta Autocords have not seen nearly the same amount of work therefore are in much better shape..

johns photos · Apr 13, 2015

walliswizard said:
I like the TLRs but I don't think that's what I'm looking for. I have one, albeit a not-very-good one that doesn't properly work (Halina A1). Not for me.

Rangefinder - hmmm, I have a couple now and they are *OK* but I don't find them quite so easy to focus. Perhaps that is down to the ones I have though.

A Bronica sounds pretty good - I like the Pentax 645Nii but they seem a bit pricey - perhaps that is as you say down to the compatibility of lenses with the digital versions.

actually a 645 Pentax setup is quite a bit LESS than a Bronica ETRSi here in the states.

johns photos · Apr 13, 2015

walliswizard said:
I like the TLRs but I don't think that's what I'm looking for. I have one, albeit a not-very-good one that doesn't properly work (Halina A1). Not for me.

Rangefinder - hmmm, I have a couple now and they are *OK* but I don't find them quite so easy to focus. Perhaps that is down to the ones I have though.

A Bronica sounds pretty good - I like the Pentax 645Nii but they seem a bit pricey - perhaps that is as you say down to the compatibility of lenses with the digital versions.

Reality is Pentax 645 glass has not really held its value well simply because its not sharp enough for the new 645D/645Z cameras. 40/50 megapixels places demands that older generation glass is not capable of handling. A standard 75mm Pentax SLR from the FILM era is still quite inexpensive. The new Digitally designed lenses are digital capable and quite expensive. Pentax knows they can charge exorbitant amounts for these new digital designs simply because the old 645SLR glass designed for FILM never translated well to the digital domain (of any brand; same with Mamiya, Bronica, etc..)

The 645N2 can be had for under 400 under on ebay if one is patient.

edinator · Apr 18, 2015

If you are looking for a TLR, I really think the Minolta Autocord is the best bang for your buck if you value a solid build. I've owned several autocords, a Rolleiflex 2.8e and yashica 124G and the Autocord seems to be the best of the bunch. The Rollei is heavy and expensive, the Yashica build is ok but I can't stand the racheting wind.

The autocord is comparable to the Rolleiflex 3.5 in every way but for 2/3 or less of the price.

Sirius Glass · Apr 18, 2015

A Hasselblad is a good budget camera because it will wipe out your budget so that you will not need to worry about one for a long time. Actually it just stretches out the time period between lens purchases. You really want one so go ahead and buy it.

leicarfcam · Apr 18, 2015

edinator said:
If you are looking for a TLR, I really think the Minolta Autocord is the best bang for your buck if you value a solid build. I've owned several autocords, a Rolleiflex 2.8e and yashica 124G and the Autocord seems to be the best of the bunch. The Rollei is heavy and expensive, the Yashica build is ok but I can't stand the racheting wind.

The racheting sound of the Yashica Mats is caused by a dry crank lock.. A little moly grease will make it quiet..

edinator said:
The autocord is comparable to the Rolleiflex 3.5 in every way but for 2/3 or less of the price.

One of the problems with the Autocord is most sellers are asking far more than they are worth.. I have 2 and would never part with then but they just aren't worth what others want...

removedacct1 · Apr 18, 2015

leicarfcam said:
One of the problems with the Autocord is most sellers are asking far more than they are worth.. I have 2 and would never part with then but they just aren't worth what others want...

In October 2014, I paid $250 for an Autocord in superb condition. It needed no cleaning or adjusting to work - it was ready to go. Worth every penny IMO.

leicarfcam · Apr 18, 2015

paulbarden said:
In October 2014, I paid $250 for an Autocord in superb condition. It needed no cleaning or adjusting to work - it was ready to go. Worth every penny IMO.

I agree... If it is clean and fully working but most have broken focus levers, slow speeds dragging, and missing pieces of leather not to mention other issues. But these sellers think they have a goldmine with the Autocord. But of course this is also true of many Yashica Mats and some Rolleiflex/cords.

Sellers need to learn how to price according to condition and not name..

There are a few Autocords listed on eBay right now in the $150-400 range with broken focus levers and other issues. They are not worth the asking price..

I have a couple of Autocords I bought in good working order for less than $100..

edinator · Apr 21, 2015

leicarfcam said:
The racheting sound of the Yashica Mats is caused by a dry crank lock.. A little moly grease will make it quiet..

That's good to know, I could never understand why anyone could stand that annoying sound haha

Well either the Autocord is underpriced or the Rolleiflex 3.5 is overpriced, probably both. The Autocords even allow multiple exposures and AFAIK only the F model rolleiflexes have that feature.

I have an Autocord I want to sell that was recently cleaned up but I don't have enough posts on apug yet That's what I get for being a lurker. And it's at a much more reasonable price than the "as is" models on ebay.

MattKing · Apr 21, 2015

edinator said:
I have an Autocord I want to sell that was recently cleaned up but I don't have enough posts on apug yet That's what I get for being a lurker. And it's at a much more reasonable price than the "as is" models on ebay.

You need to be a paid subscriber to list things for sale here.

edinator · Apr 21, 2015

MattKing said:
You need to be a paid subscriber to list things for sale here.

Oh! Didn't know that, well I'm subscribed now

Rodinalforever · May 1, 2015

I will go with a Mamiya C220: very cheap and with interchangeble lens. You have the quality of a Rolleiflex at 1/2 of the price and it offers a complete system. In a small/medium bag you can put in a camera with 3 lens and a Gossen Lunasix. For landscape work the 55mm lens is useful, for portrait works 135mm is more suitable then the Rollei'80mm. I use it for my black and white works, printed in darkroom, and I can't distinguish Mamiya's negatives from those made my Hasselblad (beautiful camera but still expensive if your budget is tight). My 2 cents.

studiocarter · May 5, 2015

There are soooo many lenses for the Pentax 67 & 6 x7 cameras that I'm like a kid in a candy store. They are very affordable and so are the many other accessories. It's a wonderful system. I have 35mm up to 600mm lenses, not everything but most. A chimney viewfinder was just tried out today. To my delight I am able to focus using my bifocal eyeglasses or the tops, and not scratch the glasses. The chimney has a very large focuser on it.

leicarfcam · May 5, 2015

Rodinalforever said:
I will go with a Mamiya C220: very cheap and with interchangeble lens. You have the quality of a Rolleiflex at 1/2 of the price and it offers a complete system. In a small/medium bag you can put in a camera with 3 lens and a Gossen Lunasix. For landscape work the 55mm lens is useful, for portrait works 135mm is more suitable then the Rollei'80mm. I use it for my black and white works, printed in darkroom, and I can't distinguish Mamiya's negatives from those made my Hasselblad (beautiful camera but still expensive if your budget is tight). My 2 cents.

I agree. I use both the C220 and C330 with all 7 lens. I would start off with the 65mm, 80mm, and 135mm lens first. However if you want to do some close ups you'll need either a paramender or you can place marks on the center column of your tripod 50mm apart.

Recommend a good "budget" medium format?

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