Recommend a good "budget" medium format?

Moopheus · Apr 7, 2015

johnha said:
I haven't looked at prices of these recently, but the Mamiya C330 would probably be easiest to find in better condition for the budget.

A C220 could definitely be had on that budget. Lenses can be had fairly inexpensively.

An RB67 could surely be had. Get the newest you can afford.

You might be able to get a Fuji GW690.

The problem is so much gear is going for so little money that even a smallish budget leaves too many choices.

nwilkins · Apr 7, 2015

If you want an SLR then you won't find better image quality than an RB67/RZ67. A Pentax 67 is probably the same quality. Can't speak to the Pentax prices but I definitely got my RB67 Pro SD with a 90mm lens and 2 film backs and polaroid back for under $400. The nice thing about the RB system is that it is completely modular so you can have multiple rolls on the go (for different film types) and a range of lenses is available when you want to expand. The only drawback is the size and weight which for me is not much of a problem - really it just prevents being able to take shots that require quick 35mm-like handling. (I always imagine a Mamiya 7 would solve that problem but they're pretty pricey).

removed-user-1 · Apr 7, 2015

I no longer shoot much medium format, but I've used many medium format cameras. The list includes the Mamiya RB67 Pro S, several versions of the Mamiya 645, a Bronica SQ-AI, the original Pentax 645, Yashica 635 and Yashica-Mat 124g (both TLRs), and a Fuji GS645s (rangefinder). If I had to choose from that group, I would pick the RB67 if I was planning to work on a tripod, or the Fuji for portability. Both are mechanical and should be available for your budget.

Monday317 · Apr 7, 2015

Considering options

Hi W2,
I'm getting back into film myself after a few moons and have faced a similar question. I'm also a drummer and it happens as well on drummer forums when someone asks, "What do you think I should get?" A thousand preferences and opinions are spewed, few actually answering the original question. Let's consider yours:

Budget: <$400.00 USD/£250--many choices at that price for the non-fussy novitiate
Simplicity; manual operation OK. Sounds like you have some idea of how film speed, aperture and shutter speed relate
MF, but no particular format
A few specifics--

- good quality photos in a camera that won't let me down for not a lot of money (big ask?). Nope!
- mirror lockup for when I shoot landscape You thinking about a system camera, then?
- external cable-released shutter when I need it Very few that wouldn't have this.

Lots of studio-type box SLRs around, many names already mentioned. The West European stuff retains its value, so unless you get pretty lucky with a private sale somewhere, I tend to doubt you'll be able to find a good Rollei or Hasselblad at this price point. Even the Mamiyas and Bronicas will require at least one lens and film back and getting these in great condition--or as a kit--is still a bit spendy. That said, in 6 x 4.5 cm, you might do OK. I have used it and it is noticeably better than 35mm, though not what I'd call a quantum leap: consider a 35mm negative is 864mm2; the 6 x 4.5 cm (or 60 x 45mm, if you will) is 2700mm2, or only about 3x larger. Nice, but a 6x9 is about 6x larger than 35. You'll see--and feel--that! Also, many of these boxers like the RB 67 are serious bricks to lug around.

Therefore IMHO, (backed by a little experience) a folding rangefinder would meet all your criteria to start with and can easily be sold or traded in for more sophisticated gear if you chose. Re-entering the film photography world ("analog" is just too 21st Century for this geezer!) on a budget myself forced me to consider the same criteria you laid down.

So I bought a Zeiss Ercona I folder with a Tessar lens on eBay; here's why:

Truly superb optic: 4-element 105mm f3.5 Tessar from the East German Zeiss plant in a nice Tempor (Compur copy) shutter and cable ready
All manual--I hate electronics in photography, flash and darkroom timers excepted
Comfortably >$200.00 USD, no mirror lockup problems--no mirror! Built like a tank, dependable
Lens equals any made today, monochrome or polychrome (black & white or color for you folks in Rio Linda heh, heh...) at f8-16
Easy to carry, tripod mountable, 6x9 format with 6x6 mask option

I may still go with a Pentax 6x7 system should a little semi-pro work come my way (real estate) but this current choice fills my bill completely. Got a decent developing tank, tripod and enlarging lens total is about $400 USD. I've spent more for a cymbal!

If you have digital/35mm experience, a slowish, fixed focal length, 4-element lensed, manual rangefinder from the Soviet bloc-era may seem like only a shade above a disposable from the drugstore and a few years ago, I'd have agreed myself. But if you Google any of the Zeiss Ikonta/Voigtlander Bessa/Agfa Billy Record cameras (or their 6x6 bretheren if you prefer square format) and look at the images those fine old lenses produce, you'll feel the bug bite! Those big 6 x 9 negatives cannot be outdone, even by $40K worth of MF, digital glory. A class to themselves.

Consider and go forth. Good luck with your search and we will watch your future career with great interest... :munch:

DWThomas · Apr 7, 2015

As an owner of an SQ-A, I must mention that I believe the original model in that series, the SQ, did *not* have mirror lockup. I've no idea what the ETRxxx series does. I like the square format and have been quite happy with the SQ-A, although in the beginning I experienced some back problems (the camera, not me! ) and the first body, which looked pretty used, acted up on me.

I also use a Yashica Mat 124g, a Perkeo II folder (all up to this point 6x6) and an Ercona II (East German Zeiss Ikonta) which is a 6x9 folder. All are pretty capable. Obviously the Bronica SQ-A has the most flexibility, being quite modular, and with lenses from 40mm to at least 250 available. But some of the Bronica gear might not fit your budget unless you get lucky.

Regular Rod · Apr 8, 2015

walliswizard said:
I'm about to develop my first batch of black and white film. If this works out (ie. I enjoy it, it's not a huge hassle, and the results are OK for a first attempt) then I can see myself looking for a medium format camera to use for black and white landscapes and portraits. I'm not overly fussy, I'm OK for it to be manual everything if needs be, maybe even better if it doesn't have too many electronics to go wrong? Even if I have to use a handheld meter, I'm fine with that.

Ideally I don't want to spend a fortune, so say £250 in UK money, (approx $400?). That's to include a lens ideally.

What I'm looking for is:

- good quality photos in a camera that won't let me down for not a lot of money (big ask?).
- mirror lockup for when I shoot landscape
- external cable-released shutter when I need it.

Not so fussy about whether it's 645, 66, 67, 69, whatever.

Any models you'd recommend for/against please? I'm just researching right now.

Thank you!

A fully operational AGFA Record III and use the rest of the money on a lens hood, yellow filter, spotmeter and more film...

RR

Paul Howell · Apr 8, 2015

I'm about to develop my first batch of black and white film. If this works out (ie. I enjoy it, it's not a huge hassle, and the results are OK for a first attempt) then I can see myself looking for a medium format camera to use for black and white landscapes and portraits. I'm not overly fussy, I'm OK for it to be manual everything if needs be, maybe even better if it doesn't have too many electronics to go wrong? Even if I have to use a handheld meter, I'm fine with that.

Ideally I don't want to spend a fortune, so say £250 in UK money, (approx $400?). That's to include a lens ideally.

What I'm looking for is:

- good quality photos in a camera that won't let me down for not a lot of money (big ask?).
- mirror lockup for when I shoot landscape
- external cable-released shutter when I need it.

Not so fussy about whether it's 645, 66, 67, 69, whatever.

Any models you'd recommend for/against please? I'm just researching right now.

Thank you!

Unless you are wedded to an SLR I recommend that you look into a Mamyia Press or Konica Rapid. The Mamyia has a better selection of lens, but the lens need to be cocked, while the Konica cocks the shutter when the film is advanced. Mamyia has backs for 6X7 and 6X9. As a rangefinder, no worries about mirror lockup, the Mamyia also has a ground glass back, may be hard to find one. Both the Mamyia and Konica have cable release shutters, I think standard threads.

The longest lens for the Mamyia is a 250, the Konica a 180.

flavio81 · Apr 8, 2015

I owned/own some folder cameras in 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x9 format, a Rolleicord, Mamiya C330, C220 and C2; plus the Mamiya RB67 pro-S, and the Praktisix II. Also the Lubitel 166B. Then I have also tried the Hassy 500C and Rollei SL66.

What to choose? It's not easy.

If i had to keep only one medium format camera, it would be the RB67. The RB67 is one of the greatest cameras ever made, in any format. Coupled with the 127/3.8 lens and the waist level finder, it is still portable; if you restrict yourself to one lens.

Handheld shooting. Not all of those MF cameras are good for handheld shooting because they have strong mirror or shutter vibrations. The Pentax 6x7 (first version), Hasselblad 500-series, and Pentacon six/Praktisix, have too strong vibrations to be used handheld at lower than 1/125 or 1/60 speed. The RB67 has a special mirror governor that makes handheld speed at even 1/15 speed possible. Why the others didn't incorporate such a mechanism? Perhaps because it would increase camera size...

If you can only afford ONE medium format camera, go for the Mamiya C220 or C330 since it's the most versatile. If you are comfortable with only one lens, the Rolleiflex cameras will keep you very happy. But they are not "affordable".

If you need a really really compact and portable MF camera, use a 6x4.5 folder camera. Don't go for 6x9 folders (without rangefinders) since depth of field is way too small for practical use.

Now, for the dark horse in TLRs... The Ricohflex Super!! A really cheap TLR, reliable, tough, light, small, with a lens that is capable of good results. Don't go for the Lubitels -- the lens is not good enough to justify going to medium format. Three-element lenses can be good (as in the Ricohflex and as in the Agfa Apotar lenses, as in the Novar lenses, or as in the Tair-3 russian tele), but the T-22 triplet on the Lubitels is not good enough.

flavio81 · Apr 8, 2015

Regular Rod said:
A fully operational AGFA Record III and use the rest of the money on a lens hood, yellow filter, spotmeter and more film...

RR

Mine was too vibration prone. It had the compur shutter and the brute force of the shutter slap seem to rock the image plane. Note that this camera was serviced and focus was calibrated by me. Also, as mentioned above, depth of field is too small with 6x9; you need to carry a tripod, and if i'm going to carry a tripod then the folder camera is not so portable.

I was happy with the Zeiss Nettar 517/16 and the Zenobia folders, though.

I own the Ensign Selfix 820 with the Ross Xpres lens, and the build quality is higher than any comparable Agfa folder, and indeed better than the Voigtlander Bessa folders (which are flimsy), but sadly the 105/3.8 Ross Xpres lens does not give pin-sharp pitcures corner-to-corner until stopped down to f11. At least according to my calibrations and tests. I need to try calibration for a third time, that's why I don't sell it. Also i think someday i should fit an Agfa Apotar or Solinar to it; that would be a killer combination!

natertots · Apr 8, 2015

Welcome to the wonderful world of Medium Format! While my first hand experience of MF's is limited to a few Mamiya SLR's (M645, M645 Super, my teacher's 645AFD, RZ67II) All of my experiences have been very pleasant. For under $400 an M645 1000S/Super/Pro would be your best option, and N lenses are quite sharp- the 55 2.8 LS and 150 3.8 N LS being my favorites. If you like backs a Super or a Pro would work very well for you. While I have fallen in love with my RZ, it was costly and is quite bulky and the RB is even more so. But 6x7 negs are quite pretty and have a lot of detail! 7x7 polaroids are a bonus.

walliswizard · Apr 8, 2015

I think I'm leaning towards a Bronica SQ-AI at the moment, having done a (little!) bit of research. I like the idea of the 6x6 format, that's quite interesting. We shall see though.

Anyway, tonight I mixed up my first batch of developer. Will develop my first film tomorrow night! 'citing!!

Dali · Apr 8, 2015

For a limited budget and in preference order:

_ Mamiya C (220 or 330): the most convenient but rather heavy to carry.
_ Rolleicord: if you don't like it, you can sell it for the price you bought it.
_ Ikoflex: be sure to read the manual first but these are really nice cameras.
_ Yashica MAT: not that cheap and reliable but easy to find.

John Koehrer · Apr 8, 2015

flavio81 said:
Mine was too vibration prone. It had the compur shutter and the brute force of the shutter slap seem to rock the image plane. Note that this camera was serviced and focus was calibrated by me. Also, as mentioned above, depth of field is too small with 6x9; you need to carry a tripod, and if i'm going to carry a tripod then the folder camera is not so portable.

Mirror slap?

Alan Gales · Apr 8, 2015

A Bronica ETR or ETRsi would probably be the cheapest way to go. There is nothing wrong with them except I would rather shoot 6x7 for landscape.

I'd recommend the RB67 if you can swing one.

flavio81 · Apr 8, 2015

John Koehrer said:
Mirror slap?

I was referring to an Agfa Record III, a folder camera, with no mirror.

The Synchro-Compur shutter on it, for achieving the remarkably fast speed of 1/500 (remarkable for such a shutter), uses extra-strong springs which make it a real brute in terms of the shock created when triggering the shutter.

Conversely, the shutter on my Ensign folder, the humble and often maligned Epsilon shutter, is very smooth in operation. As are the Prontor shutters i've used over the times.

Regular Rod · Apr 9, 2015

flavio81 said:
I was referring to an Agfa Record III, a folder camera, with no mirror.

The Synchro-Compur shutter on it, for achieving the remarkably fast speed of 1/500 (remarkable for such a shutter), uses extra-strong springs which make it a real brute in terms of the shock created when triggering the shutter.

Conversely, the shutter on my Ensign folder, the humble and often maligned Epsilon shutter, is very smooth in operation. As are the Prontor shutters i've used over the times.

I can't say I've experienced any difficulties like that with mine...?

Mind you I've not used 1/500 with mine yet.

RR

R.Gould · Apr 9, 2015

flavio81 said:
I was referring to an Agfa Record III, a folder camera, with no mirror.

The Synchro-Compur shutter on it, for achieving the remarkably fast speed of 1/500 (remarkable for such a shutter), uses extra-strong springs which make it a real brute in terms of the shock created when triggering the shutter.

Conversely, the shutter on my Ensign folder, the humble and often maligned Epsilon shutter, is very smooth in operation. As are the Prontor shutters i've used over the times.

While I don't have an agfa record rcord III folder, in fact I don't have any agfa folders in my extensive collection, I have many with the Compur shutter and I can't say I have had any problems. I certainly would not call the compur a brute, I find them very smooth at all shutter speeds, including 500, and have never had any vibration with any folders, I would describe the compur shuttered cameras I have as very smooth and vibration free at all speeds, never had camera shake hand held at any speed form 1/2 to 500 with any of them, I do agree with you about the Epsilon shutter on Ensign's I again have several epsilon shuttered ensigns including the 820, and the shutter is lovely and smooth, I have only had one Ensign with a shutter problem, and a quick trip to Newton and Ellis sorted it out
Richard

Prest_400 · Apr 9, 2015

I went through the same process with about the same maximum budget.

Jeff Bradford said:
6x9 is where I fell in love. Shooting color slide film in a Kodak Medalist II was a leap of faith, but the resulting transparencies still take my breath away.

My next big purchase will likely be a Fuji range-finder. I haven't yet decided if I want 6x6, 6x7, or 6x9, but Fuji made quite a variety. The Fuji's may be out of your budget if you're just testing the waters.

I got a GW690III purchased from Japan at a nicely low price (quite some patience until I found it at that rate). Stick with an older iteration GW690 mk I or mkII and the prices are within your budget.
I chose that model as it was Modern, RF, and large Medium Format 6x9.

Any of the modern options mentioned is great. I'd be wary about the folders and TLRs as many would be fit for a CLA and that eats into the budget as well. I'd love a Rollei TLR though I doubt any of the Planar/Xenotar models fall within the budget!

Kirks518 · Apr 9, 2015

There's a GW690III on the big site right now for <$330 shipped. LINK

I have absolutely zero affiliation with the seller.

paul_c5x4 · Apr 9, 2015

Comes in at (an estimated) £250 including shipping. On top of this, the buyer would need to factor in customs charges, VAT (Sales Tax), and any handling charges. These could quickly add up to another £60-70.

Regular Rod · Apr 9, 2015

The Fuji big rangefinders are brilliant but with your original budget and going on your user name I was imagining that a folder would make an ideal camera to slip in a fishing jacket pocket. Here's an example from my AGFA Record III by the Derbyshire Wye using FOMAPAN 200

and this one was made with FP4 Plus

this one with ADOX CHS 25 Art

A folder might be just the thing for you right now.

RR

DWThomas · Apr 9, 2015

Regular Rod -- love that bridge arch shot!

Further input for the 1.3 after-tax cents it may be worth . . .

There are subgalleries off my PBase gallery of what I claim to be Active Photo Gear that includes my medium format stuff. Each subgallery has photo(s) of the camera and a few examples taken with it. Most also have links to other galleries containing additional shots they have been used for.

pentaxuser · Apr 9, 2015

I suppose there might be something different when you move to 1/500th but I am not sure that what governs achievement of a 1/500th sec speed means that it creates problems for the cameras that has been suggested

I have an Agfa Isolette I which has 1/25th; 1/50th and 1/200th speeds and I cannot say that the highest speed affects the camera's handling. My 1/200th is as smooth as the 1/25th.

If there was a 1/500th would this create problems that is inherent in any 1/500th? I doubt it would.

pentaxuser

leicarfcam · Apr 12, 2015

Paul in Arizona said:
for that budget I'd look for a Rolleicord or one of the earlier Rolleiflex models like an Automat MX with Tessar lens. You should do very well with either of those.
Whatever you decide on, look for the best one within your budget range -ideally one that has had recent service.

Good advise..

Paul in Arizona said:
The Japanese copies are not as well built and often sell for the price of a Rolleicord. That makes no sense to me.

I disagree with this statement. The Yashica Mat's with the Yashinon lens and the Minolta Autocords with Rokkor lens are some of the finest TLR's made and will stand alongside a Rolleiflex and Rolleicord any day.. One of my favorites is the Yashica D..

Build wise they are every bit as good as the Rollei's.

Paul Howell · Apr 12, 2015

leicarfcam said:
Good advise..

I disagree with this statement. The Yashica Mat's with the Yashinon lens and the Minolta Autocords with Rokkor lens are some of the finest TLR's made and will stand alongside a Rolleiflex and Rolleicord any day.. One of my favorites is the Yashica D..

Build wise they are every bit as good as the Rollei's.

I have had many Yashica's and used Rolleicords in the Air Force. The Yashion lens is a very good 4 element Tessor style lens, but I don't think the build quality is quite up to a Rollie, the Yashica D is a good buy and also one of favorites, but it came with both the Yashinon lens and the Yasinair which a 3 element lens, good at 8 or 11 but as sharp wide, so be careful when buying, what I like about the D it is easy to made a double exposure, what I dislike is that is easy to make a double exposure. In addition to the Autocord, Kowa, Richo, and Kodak make TLRs with very good lens.

Recommend a good "budget" medium format?

removed-user-1

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