Recommend a good "budget" medium format?

I'm about to develop my first batch of black and white film. If this works out (ie. I enjoy it, it's not a huge hassle, and the results are OK for a first attempt) then I can see myself looking for a medium format camera to use for black and white landscapes and portraits. I'm not overly fussy, I'm OK for it to be manual everything if needs be, maybe even better if it doesn't have too many electronics to go wrong? Even if I have to use a handheld meter, I'm fine with that.

Ideally I don't want to spend a fortune, so say £250 in UK money, (approx $400?). That's to include a lens ideally.

What I'm looking for is:

- good quality photos in a camera that won't let me down for not a lot of money (big ask?).
- mirror lockup for when I shoot landscape
- external cable-released shutter when I need it.

Not so fussy about whether it's 645, 66, 67, 69, whatever.

Any models you'd recommend for/against please? I'm just researching right now.

Thank you!

for that budget I'd look for a Rolleicord or one of the earlier Rolleiflex models like an Automat MX with Tessar lens. You should do very well with either of those.
Whatever you decide on, look for the best one within your budget range -ideally one that has had recent service.

The Japanese copies are not as well built and often sell for the price of a Rolleicord. That makes no sense to me.

Mirror lockup is not in play because the shutters are not only practically vibration free but are almost silent. They can be hand held down to very slow shutter speeds.

Should you change your mind for whatever reason any of the Rollei family are easy to sell and have excellent residual value.

Is a 6x9 folder out of the question? For landscapes, even the triplet lens types can yield some great results stopped down, while a Tessar lens will seemingly give better results yet. There is no mirror to lock up and they readily accept cable releases.

I'll suggest a Bronica SQ. It can be had of the auction site for under $400, great lenses that aren't very costly, mirror lockup & multiple exposure setting, along with other features. Only problem is it takes batteries for the shutter. No meter, though you can add a metered prism down the road. I have an SQ-Ai and it's by far my most used MF camera. #2 is my Fuji GA645

The Pentax 645 and 645n with the 75mm f2.8 might be available at that price point. Neither needs mirror lockup, according to The Luminous Landscape https://luminous-landscape.com/645-mlu/ . The 645n is the more desirable of the two, in my opinion. Both handle much like a big 35mm SLR, and the 645n hardly needs an instruction manual. BTW, the cameras use film inserts, available for both 120 and 220 film; they can be rapidly converted from one film length to the other.

Bronica ETR-Si (last model of the ETR family) has mirror lock-up. I've got one with a 50mm 2.8, 75mm 2.8, and 150mm 3.5. I love it.
You should be able to get a body with backs, finder, and one or two lenses for under $400.

Things I like about it:
-While 645 is the smallest medium format, it scans well and enlarges beautifully at any size I can handle in my little darkroom. If you are cropping, it is essentially the same size as 6x6 (or so close it doesn't matter).
-Takes one little battery (PX28L), but it lasts a long time.
-Fully modular, with either WLF or prism finder (Pentax is prism finder only)
-Light, especially with the WLF and no grip

Dislikes:
-Shooting in portrait orientation is a pain. I've got an L-braket and put it on a tripod sideways. Cropping a 6x6 would definitely be easier for portrait layouts.

You can setup an Mamiya 645 the same way, I just went with the Bronica because it has a simple line-up (ETR, ETR-S, ETR-Si), where as the M645 had numerous body options and it I never really figured out which was which.
The Pentax isn't modular (no WLF option, fixed grip), which was a point against it for me. It is a great camera if that is how you want to shoot.

I don't know of any medium format camera that can't take a shutter cable.
Presuming you find one with the focal length you want, and don't mind being fixed, I don't see why either a folder or TLR won't meet the bill. Folders and TLRs don't have flipping mirrors, so no need for mirror lock-up.

Pick a type first:

SLR
TLR
Rangefinder

Then decide if format is important (6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x8, 6x9, even 6x12).

That will get you down to a manageable selection. The trouble with roll-film cameras, unlike 35mm, is that there are so many variations.

GRHazelton said:

The Pentax 645 and 645n with the 75mm f2.8 might be available at that price point. Neither needs mirror lockup, according to The Luminous Landscape https://luminous-landscape.com/645-mlu/ . The 645n is the more desirable of the two, in my opinion. Both handle much like a big 35mm SLR, and the 645n hardly needs an instruction manual. BTW, the cameras use film inserts, available for both 120 and 220 film; they can be rapidly converted from one film length to the other.

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+1 My P645N is possibly my favorite camera. The only problem these days is that the autofocus lenses are also usable on their digi version and therefore go for bigger bucks on the used market. But the non-AF ones will still work on the 645N. It does need batteries, but AA.

MrBrowning said:

I'll suggest a Bronica SQ. It can be had of the auction site for under $400, great lenses that aren't very costly, mirror lockup & multiple exposure setting, along with other features. Only problem is it takes batteries for the shutter.

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With the SQ-Ai, the batteries are inexpensive LR44 type, and they last quite a while.

walliswizard: If I can tempt you with an SQ-Ai, I have one for sale and we can negotiate on price.

I like the TLRs but I don't think that's what I'm looking for. I have one, albeit a not-very-good one that doesn't properly work (Halina A1). Not for me.

Rangefinder - hmmm, I have a couple now and they are *OK* but I don't find them quite so easy to focus. Perhaps that is down to the ones I have though.

A Bronica sounds pretty good - I like the Pentax 645Nii but they seem a bit pricey - perhaps that is as you say down to the compatibility of lenses with the digital versions.

I'll suggest the RB67 Pro S or Pro SD.

The body and lenses are now inexpensive and are of high quality. It is a 100% mechanical camera and has the features you want. More importantly, for B&W landscape work, you can have three film backs and dedicate each to high, medium, and low contrast scenes, thereby allowing you to shoot, develop, and print in the manner of Ansel Adams' Zone System.

For portraits, you can rotate the back.

It may seem unfamiliar at first, with having to wind the body and the back, bellows focusing, and other oddities like the mirror lock-up knob on the lens, but it's a nice system.

Again, I'd recommend the Pro S or SD version versus non-Pro because of more refinement.

walliswizard said:

I like the TLRs but I don't think that's what I'm looking for. I have one, albeit a not-very-good one that doesn't properly work (Halina A1). Not for me.

Rangefinder - hmmm, I have a couple now and they are *OK* but I don't find them quite so easy to focus. Perhaps that is down to the ones I have though.

A Bronica sounds pretty good - I like the Pentax 645Nii but they seem a bit pricey - perhaps that is as you say down to the compatibility of lenses with the digital versions.

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The 645nii was more expensive than the 645n even before the digital editions. As I recall the only substantive differences are the mirror lock up, and the ability to print more shooting info in the margin of the negative. See pentaxforums.com for lots of info in their camera section.

While the original 645 is quite inexpensive it looks like it might be a PITA to use. Ken Rockwell has opinions on it and on the 645n.

paul_c5x4 said:

walliswizard: If I can tempt you with an SQ-Ai, I have one for sale and we can negotiate on price.

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Thanks Paul, I'm not quite at that point yet.

It's just that work mentioned the magic word "overtime" today. So who knows in a month or two....

Theo Sulphate said:

I'll suggest the RB67 Pro S or Pro SD.

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Liking the look of those too. I think those are the kinds of cameras I had in mine.

Thanks for your recommendations all, very useful.

I can only speak of the RB67 Pro S as that's the only one I really have much experience with. I have used the M645, but more for formal wedding work a million years ago.

RBs are dirt cheap these days, as are lenses, film backs, etc.

walliswizard said:

...I can see myself looking for a medium format camera to use for black and white landscapes and portraits.

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Do you intend to be using it primarily hand-held, or tripod-mounted?

rolleicord

It sounds like you want an SLR. The surprising thing about professional MF cameras is, honestly, they are all quite good. The best possible thing you could do is find a way to play with a couple models and see what feels right to you.

If you do not need sync flash, I would strongly consider the Pentax 67. The newer models go for big bucks, but you can find older models for very reasonable prices. They are large and heavy cameras, but versatile and very well made. Bronica ETR (645) seems to go cheaper than Pentax and Mamiya, probably because the lens ecosystem can't be moved over to digital.

You seem to dismiss TLRs, and maybe you have good reason to, but honestly there is no more pleasurable camera to use for hiking due to the quality/weight ratio. A professional TLR is a far cry from the cheapo consumer models. They can be hand for reasonable prices (and not *just* the tessar models - if you are patient you can find deals on the higher end versions as well). My only qualm with them is that I quite often need something other than a normal lens, so if it is a dedicated photo trip I take something else.

If I had to choose a perfect landscape MF camera, I would probably go for the Rolleiflex SL66, but it is not a particularly cheap option.

For £250 you should be able to find a Bronica ETRSi or SQB. One is 645, the other 6x6. I owned both and prefer the SQB, not that much bigger but 6x6 is very nice. Alternatively you may be able to find a Mamiya RB67 ProS with a 90 lens which I would take over pretty much anything else that is medium format and SLR (I have a ProSD myself). You can easily pick up one on ebay from Japan and if you are lucky and escape the tax it will come under £250. It is a beast though but it is amazing. To give you an idea of RB67 costs, I bought my ProSD which was really like new from ffordes with warranty for £390. If you do go the RB67 route I would strongly recommend gettings ProSD backs (instead of plain Pro or ProS), they don't have foam light traps so less maintenance!

Pentax 67, Hasselblads, Mamiya 6/7 and most TLRs worth buying will be outside your budget. Or maybe you can find a Mamiya C series TLR.

Oren Grad said:

Do you intend to be using it primarily hand-held, or tripod-mounted?

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Both. Possibly in the studio too.

Since you say you don't care which format, 6x4.5 gives you the most frames per roll. The Pentax 645n is a pleasure to use. The original 645 body is no slouch (I keep a couple as spares), but shutter speed is adjusted incrementally with up-down button pushing. The manual focus Pentax 645-A lenses are fairly inexpensive and have never disappointed me.

A 6x6 TLR can be a real joy to use, though I haven't attempted any action photography with my Mamiyaflex or my C220 (it has been done by others). Square photos are favored by some and eschewed by others. You have to try it.

6x9 is where I fell in love. Shooting color slide film in a Kodak Medalist II was a leap of faith, but the resulting transparencies still take my breath away.

My next big purchase will likely be a Fuji range-finder. I haven't yet decided if I want 6x6, 6x7, or 6x9, but Fuji made quite a variety. The Fuji's may be out of your budget if you're just testing the waters.

stories

You will hear a lot of stories and some might even be true. I used a Rolleiflex professionally from 1960 through 1972 and then it fell apart. I used a Yashicamat professionally from 1974 to ---- well, it still works and still takes great photos. I have one Rolleiflex now and two Yashicamats and they take equally fabulous photos.

I have an assortment of MF cameras; Yashica 124G, RB67 Pro SD, M645, Omega Rapid, and a couple of folders. They each have their uses, and all are great "budget" cameras, but I have my preferences among them.

My favorite and most often grabbed, is the M645. It is relatively compact, not crazy heavy, and has great glass. My grab 'n go is the body, the power drive, metered prism, and 3 lenses (55mm, 80mm, 150mm), and an extra insert. I also have the 500mm, but that is new to me, and hasn't seen much use yet. All of it (except for the 500mm) fits in an Amazon Basic sling bag that I came across at a thrift store ($3), and is easy to carry. I like the 6x4.5 format, which makes me a bit odd, but I had used 35mm for decades, so I like the landscape proportions. Glass is great, and the whole system was very affordable.

Next favorite is the Yashica 124G, but only because of it's size and weight. It's like carrying a P&S compared to the rest of them. Image quality again is fabulous, but I'm just not a huge fan of the square format. I just sling this around my neck and I'm off and running.

Then there is the RB67 Pro SD. I'm pretty close to full bling on what I have. I picked this up locally, and it was essentially unused since new (owner broke her wrist 3 weeks after buying it, and was never able to hold it properly again). For this, I have the 50mm, 90mm, 150mm SF, 210mm and 360mm lenses, Polaroid back, a complete army of backs, and a couple of grips. When I go out on a photo-walk, I like to have a wide, 'normal', and tele with me. To do this with the RB67, I need to use the aluminum case to pack it all, and I usually have to have a second bag with assorted small stuff. We're talking close to 30lbs. of gear, and I have to bring a tripod usually, just to be safe. This is not a very portable system, as evidence by it's nickname of the Studio Workhorse. Image quality is close to amazing, but the lack of true portability keeps me from using it more regularly.

As for the folders, at best I would say 'Meh'. They just don't do it for me. Don't get me wrong, there are some great folders out there, but they aren't for me. Just MHO.

For the budget you've set yourself, you could pick up some great systems. The lack of lens versatility with most TLR's would keep me from recommending one, unless you know you'd be happy with essentially one focal length. This is also why I personally have not gone down the road of a MF RF.

Based on what I know (which really isn't much), if I were to recommend one system to someone new to MF with your budget, I'd say the Mamiya M645 1000S with a 90m, and another lens of your choosing (wide or tele, based on your personal preference), and the PDS Metered Prism. This kit should come in right at $400 or less if you're patient.

Let us know what you decide.

Oh, and to add...

I had a Bronica, and while it was a nice camera, I was always afraid I was going to strip the film advance winding gear.


Also, the RB67 takes no batteries, which is great if you plan on going to remote places for extended periods of time, but the Yashica and the M645 both take the very common and cheap 4LR44 battery.

For the budget I can only suggest the following:

- Mamiya C series 6x6 TLR (preferably a C330)
- Bronica ETRS(i) (6x4.5) or SQ (6x6)
- Mamiya 645 Super/Pro
- Pentax 645

I haven't looked at prices of these recently, but the Mamiya C330 would probably be easiest to find in better condition for the budget.