Really dumb question

JLP · Sep 8, 2006

What Aggie was trying to say was "fis"

jan

Bruce Osgood · Sep 8, 2006

Roger and Frances have more than 50 books published. You can find them at Amazon. I even have a copy of "The Black and White Handbook" that has been very useful to me.

Before you start 'dishing' Roger, you better know what you're talking about, because he does.

Dave Parker · Sep 8, 2006

Bruce,

Knowing what your talking about and being just plain mean is two entirely different things..And I do respect Roger and have read his books as well as articles for years....as I got reminded the other day, what is a easy question for one person, might be a hard answer for another person....it was a legitimate question for a new person and was a mean answer by an old person to the business.

Dave

Aggie · Sep 8, 2006

JLP said:
What Aggie was trying to say was "fis"

jan

Fis = fart

fart = speed

fease = face

I had that drilled into me when I was young when my sister made the mistake of saying my grandmothers face looked like a tomato. When she meant to say she farted and it smelled like a tomato.

copake_ham · Sep 9, 2006

DieHipsterDie said:
....Now, where's the ignore user function?

Ole said:
Hipster, whatever you do don't "ignore" Riger Hicks. He's been less than helpful in this discussion, but he's usually one of the most useful people around here! you can learn a lot from him; I learn a lot from him all the time. We sometimes disagree, and at times one of us will be an arrogant bastard (more often me than him). But anyway he's the wrong man to put on top of your "ignore list".

Dear DieHipsterDie,

It's your choice. I think Roger was in rare form in treating you like trash in this thread.

With Roger, it seems that if he really has knowledge of a topic - he is helpful to answer the query. But there are times when he just has to have an opinion. I'm not sure he even knew the nature of your inquiry - but he decided to "key off" your name and go into the "Roger weird" persona.

In other words, Roger is our "expert" on everything - even things he knows nothing about.

And like most of us posting idiots - he often times doesn't know when to shut up!

And, just about uniquely, amongst us - Roger seems to have no capability to admit he might have been wrong about something (or anything, for that matter) - much less apologize. Even his lame apologies in this thread are "hedged".

Nonetheless, while I don't agree with Ole that Roger is "one of the most useful people around here", he is amusing. He likes to play the curmudgeon role - and that's necessary in any good bit of theater. And isn't a web forum just a bunch of ongoing theater?

Besides, there are far worse here (depending on personal preferences) that you may want to "Ignore" before putting Roger on the list.

The things to keep in mind about Roger is that:

1) He hates America (but not necessarily Americans).

2) He is a lapsed Luddite (he claims to be true to the Luddite faith - but somehow has a computer and likes to go on line - which is how he gets here).

3) He has gourmand tastes in wine and food - and the excess imbibing of the former sometimes informs his posts.

4) He thrives on being and iconoclast and irrasicable - thus, you can always "tease a rise" from him by pulling his chain. If you switch tables on Roger (wilely though he is) you can sometimes catch him at his own game.

Consider him a well-informed photographer (it's true about his publications and respect in the field) who is one of those greying bearded rascallions sitting at the far end of the bar in the pub and needing to tell the rest of us just how stupid we really are....

Or, conversely, think of Roger as a web toy - talk to him, toss him in the air and when you get really drowsy, drop him on the floor and go to sleep.

Dave Parker · Sep 9, 2006

copake_ham said:
Dear DieHipsterDie,

It's your choice. I think Roger was in rare form in treating you like trash in this thread.

With Roger, it seems that if he really has knowledge of a topic - he is helpful to answer the query. But there are times when he just has to have an opinion. I'm not sure he even knew the nature of your inquiry - but he decided to "key off" your name and go into the "Roger weird" persona.

In other words, Roger is our "expert" on everything - even things he knows nothing about.

And like most of us posting idiots - he often times doesn't know when to shut up!

And, just about uniquely, amongst us - Roger seems to have no capability to admit he might have been wrong about something (or anything, for that matter) - much less apologize. Even his lame apologies in this thread are "hedged".

Nonetheless, while I don't agree with Ole that Roger is "one of the most useful people around here", he is amusing. He likes to play the curmudgeon role - and that's necessary in any good bit of theater. And isn't a web forum just a bunch of ongoing theater?

Besides, there are far worse here (depending on personal preferences) that you may want to "Ignore" before putting Roger on the list.

The things to keep in mind about Roger is that:

1) He hates America (but not necessarily Americans).

2) He is a lapsed Luddite (he claims to be true to the Luddite faith - but somehow has a computer and likes to go on line - which is how he gets here).

3) He has gourmand tastes in wine and food - and the excess imbibing of the former sometimes informs his posts.

4) He thrives on being and iconoclast and irrasicable - thus, you can always "tease a rise" from him by pulling his chain. If you switch tables on Roger (wilely though he is) you can sometimes catch him at his own game.

Consider him a well-informed photographer (it's true about his publications and respect in the field) who is one of those greying bearded rascallions sitting at the far end of the bar in the pub and needing to tell the rest of us just how stupid we really are....

Or, conversely, think of Roger as a web toy - talk to him, toss him in the air and when you get really drowsy, drop him on the floor and go to sleep.

Oh my god George...

I am rolling on the floor with a side stitch that is so painful, I don't know that I will be able to get up until Saturday Morning, I am laughing so hard!!!!

My god man, you have out done yourself !! If you keep it up, I will have to put you on my ignore list, just so I can spare myself the pain of the belly rolling laughter, this is freaking priceless, I love , I really do!

LMFAO!!!!!!!

Dave

Donald Miller · Sep 9, 2006

Dave Parker said:
Andy,

Not everyone was a beginer, Roger came out of the womb with a Leica strapped around his neck!

LOL

Was the strap constricting blood flow?

Jerevan · Sep 9, 2006

I can't say much of the bloviated-old-you-knows that do crop up. Sometimes it is better (if not easier) to walk away.

The information about Durst enlargers online is a dark chapter. Few manuals and hundreds and hundreds of different obnoxious shorthands for parts of equipment (such as SIXPLA, IXOPLA, SIRIONEG) for different enlargers. I had quite a lot of problems just figuring out what a Durst 606 was and how it worked - it took some effort to find anything useful.

If Durst had had some sense, they would have done what several other manufacturers of photographical equipment have done - put up old manuals in pdf, downloadable for free. It would make life easier. I know that they have a service, selling the german F30 manual for 22 in pdf form, but...

Here is one link for some enlarger manuals (not all Dursts):
http://manuelsphoto.free.fr/

David H. Bebbington · Sep 9, 2006

F30 manual on offer here:

http://search.stores.ebay.ie/THE-CA...sooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftsZ2QQsaselZ302085095QQsofpZ0

ricksplace · Sep 9, 2006

I thought diehipsterdie referred to the notorious "hipster" pants I wore in my teens 40 years ago. An old geezer my age in hipster pants would definitely NOT be a Kodak moment. Young children might be emotionally scarred for life. That possibility coupled with uproarious laughter and projectile vomiting caused by a geezer in such attire makes me wish that hipster pants would just die...

Roger Hicks · Sep 9, 2006

Fair comment: I was rude, and I apologize again. Also, as someone else suggested, I was slightly 'tired and emotional' (to use the old Private Eye euphemism) after a bottle of Sylvaner with dinner. This led also to my confusing 'DieHipsterDie' with 'Get_Me_A_Gun' who was recently complaining about not being paid when someone else won a competition with a picture of him. The only thing the names have in common is that I find them both bloody silly and irritating, but this has already been discussed at length in other threads on real names rather than 'handles'. It explains my irascibility, even if it provides no excuse.

It is however worth pointing out that sooner or later DHD may have to go inside his enlarger, despite his stated unwillingness to do so, in order to clean it. Diffusion chambers and reflector plates accumulate dirt; so do condensers. Having the thing apart and cleaning it may well cut exposure times significantly and possibly increase contrast as well. At that point, it will be easy to see what the light path is.

Cheers,

Roger

DieHipsterDie · Sep 9, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
It is however worth pointing out that sooner or later DHD may have to go inside his enlarger, despite his stated unwillingness to do so, in order to clean it. Diffusion chambers and reflector plates accumulate dirt; so do condensers. Having the thing apart and cleaning it may well cut exposure times significantly and possibly increase contrast as well. At that point, it will be easy to see what the light path is.

Can I really mess up anything by opening and cleaning this enlarger?

Carol · Sep 9, 2006

Monophoto said:
Well - - - I would argue that the F30 is both.

A condenser enlarger uses a lens (or set of lenses) to cause the light from a source to form a beam. The condenser lens(es) sit between the light source and the negative.

A diffusion enlarge uses an optical device to diffuse the light from the source. The diffusion device sits between the light source and the negative.

The Durst F30 (and also F60) enlarges have BOTH condenser lenses and diffusion devices. The diffusion device is a white-painted steel plate that serves as a reflector, bending the beam of light from the bulb at a 90 degree angle and redirecting it downward through the condenser lens to the negative stage. So the actual light source seen by the condenser lenses is not the semi-specular lamp, but rather the very diffused white metal plate reflector.

That's a very useful answer Monophoto and I believe it explains how my Durst M370 BW enlarger works. The lamp sits at the back and it has a reflecting plate and a dome shaped piece of glass (condenser?) sits above the negative.

Perhaps due to my age I associate the word condenser with things like capacitors and resistors and somehow it never occurred to me that that's what the little glass bit was.

DieHipsterDie. I don't know what your enlarger looks like, but may I offer a word of caution. When I gingerly unscrewed mine to give it a clean, expecting the top bit to come off, the lamp dropped out into my hand. Sheer luck it didn't break. I just gave everything a wipe over and put it back together.

Also it's a good idea to buy one or two spare bulbs because there's not much more frustrating than mixing up your chemicals only to have the lamp blow during the first print. Happy printing.

joeyk49 · Sep 9, 2006

DieHipsterDie said:
Can I really mess up anything by opening and cleaning this enlarger?

Not really...Yes, you can, but if you can handle a camera, load a camera, clean its lenses and develop a roll of film, you can probably handle a little cleaning of the consenser head (Even with a cover, the sucker seems to be a dust magnet!). Just use care, don't force anything and remember what your took apart/removed and how it goes back together.

And, so what if you do?! (This is intended to diffuse your apprehension) You might just booger up a $50.00 enlarger. On the scale of things, not too devastating.

Thank you all for a most enjoyable thread!!! My dear wife had to find her way from across the house to see what I was laughing so hard at.

I must generally agree with the preceeding posters, in that, there is ALMOST no such thing as a "stupid" question. The only genuinely stupid question is the one that isn't asked. If a person has a need for information and decides not to ask the question, then it's stupid.

If the question is not intended for gathering needed information, but to intentionally annoy or provoke a person, then its an antagonistic question.

If the inquisitor asks the question because he or she doesn't want to do the research themselves, then they are lazy, but not stupid.

Sometimes the questioner doesn't learn the same way or at the same pace as others. Perhaps they've read the instructions, but don't understand them. They have to ask a question.

If the question goes unasked, because the person is intimidated or too self conscious/embarassed about the asking, then they don't get the information and can't move forward. THAT is Stupid!

I currently function as a resource person for very diverse clients. The questions that I am asked are sometimes quite surprizing, in that they reveal how much we take for granted that people are supposed to know and don't. Some of those in need of VERY basic information are some of the last people you would expect it of. I've met brilliant scientists that couldn't find their way home. I've met doctors and lawyers that couldn't change a spare tire, in fact didn't know whether their car came with one or not! Amusing too are the business executives that couldn't figure out how to work their house's alarm system...(to this day I can't program a VCR). Now, I don't always provide them with the information that they sought...Either I find it more beneficial to guide them to another resource, where they can find the information themselves or, as may often be they case, I just don't know and join the quest myself...

Roger Hicks · Sep 9, 2006

DieHipsterDie said:
Can I really mess up anything by opening and cleaning this enlarger?

Dear DHD,

Not unless you're really unlucky. Dursts are often slightly more complex than other enlargers (more diecastings and fiddly screws) but it's still pretty simple engineering. If at all possible I'd remove the head from the column, and work over a tray with a raised edge so that screws don't fall on the floor.

I'll second the advice to buy a spare bulb -- NOW! -- and again you'll have to go inside to see what the bulb is. Usually, removing the lamp-housing will allow adequate access to the condenser(s)/mixing chamber as well. Obviously removing the lamp-housing has to be fairly idiot-proof as it is something most users will have to do from time to time.

Cheers (and apologies once again),

Roger

digiconvert · Sep 9, 2006

Please Roger NEVER consider coming to teach in a school with insecure, low self esteem students- mind you they'd have fun paying you back !

I have a meopta enlarger, second hand - I think it's a condensor but my main criteria is that it produces clear prints from my mediocre negatives , I had no idea what it was when I bought it, other than they have a reputation fo being built like a tank and lasting forever.

Keep asking questions - otherwise you remain ignorant !

Roger Hicks · Sep 9, 2006

digiconvert said:
Please Roger NEVER consider coming to teach in a school with insecure, low self esteem students- mind you they'd have fun paying you back !

Ah, but the hard cases loved me. When you have them on your side, half the battle in teaching is won. When the next you hear is that they're down for GBH (Grievous Bodily Harm), as happened with one of my rougher pupils, you're really grateful they were on your side. And he was. Even the teachers were afraid of him. Except me. When we first met, I was a bit smacked up from a motorcycle accident. He said, "Hur, hur, you bin in the wars, aint'cher?" And I replied, "Yeah, but you should have seen the other bloke." I could do no wrong after that...

I was also pretty good with the remedial kids and at getting the smart ones into university/art school. My only real problems were with the insecure, low self esteem teachers and (worse still) would-be teacher trainers: I taught without formal training, as you could 30+ years ago. I am actually a qualified secondary school teacher, despite the efforts of the last, though I've not been in a classroom in over a quarter of a century. Really, if you want insecurity and low self esteem, look in the staff room, not among the pupils.

It's also surprising how different everything is face-to-face -- and 36-against-1. When it's 'live' instead of sequential, the whole dynamic changes.

One of the loveliest compliments I ever had was in my late 30s. A young man came up to me and said, "Mr. Hicks, innit?"

To cut a long story short, I'd taught him 10 years earlier. The conversation more or less ended with "Us didn't think us learned f**k nothin' in your classes, but lookin' back, us learned f***in' more there than in the rest of the f***in' school put together."

I'm glad I wasn't his English teacher, though...

Cheers,

Roger

MattKing · Sep 9, 2006

This thread interests me.

Ironically, if Roger had asked the question, it might have been a dumb question, but because DieHipsterDie is a beginner, it's not.

If the thread title had been "Beginner's question" or "Really naive question", I think all of us would have read the question entirely differently.

If the question had been more like "How can I tell whether my Durst F30 is a condenser or diffusion enlarger?", I think all of us would have read the question entirely differently.

Even better, if the initial question had been more like "I don't know what is meant by a condenser enlarger, or a diffusion enlarger. Is my Durst F30 a condenser or diffusion enlarger? How could I tell?".

One really good thing about APUG is that there is almost universal agreement that there is no shame in being a rank beginner, and that questions from newbies are welcome. There may be a resulting referral to another source, or a suggestion about searching the archives, but questions from beginners are encouraged. The only thing we ask is that you identify your level of knowledge so that we can gauge the best sort of response.

I expect that Roger fell into the trap of assuming that because DieHipsterDie used the terms condenser and diffusion in a sentence that made sense, then DieHipsterDie had familiarity with and understood those terms. That is something all of us who use jargon regularly need to guard against (us lawyers often are the second worst offenders, after IT people).

When it is not otherwise clear, probably the best response to a question like this is another question enquiring about the level of knowledge of the person asking it. The trick is to know when that question might cause offence. Post count is clearly an unreliable clue.

I was thinking about this last night before falling asleep. For some crazy reason, I remembered a scene from an old Mary Tyler Moore TV show, where they were trying to teach Ted how to play poker. There were all sorts of discussions about how straights beat flushes and three of a kind beat two pair etc., etc., and Ted nodded knowingly and appeared to understand. Then, when they were finished, they asked him if he had any questions. He responded: "What is a kind?"

Matt

Wade D · Sep 10, 2006

When I was young I asked many questions. One of my uncles once said "you ask too many questions" to which, at the age of 14, I answered "if I don't ask questions how can I learn". That shut him up in a hurry.
Just something from my past I thought I'd throw in.
This is the kind of thread that makes the internet a great place.
I love it. I'm glad I found this site. APUG is a great place to learn as well as impart information to those who ask.

Roger Hicks · Sep 10, 2006

MattKing said:
I expect that Roger fell into the trap of assuming that because DieHipsterDie used the terms condenser and diffusion in a sentence that made sense, then DieHipsterDie had familiarity with and understood those terms. That is something all of us who use jargon regularly need to guard against (us lawyers often are the second worst offenders, after IT people).

Dear Matt,

Thanks for the kind let-out, which is accurate, but still better than I deserve.

Cheers,

R.

DieHipsterDie · Sep 10, 2006

No worries, Roger. Thanks for the info. Now, is it normal for my indicator stop bath to turn purple after only two light sessions?

Markok765 · Sep 10, 2006

DieHipsterDie said:
No worries, Roger. Thanks for the info. Now, is it normal for my indicator stop bath to turn purple after only two light sessions?

How light is light? i have had my stop bath turn purple after 30 10x8 rc prints

Roger Hicks · Sep 10, 2006

DieHipsterDie said:
No worries, Roger. Thanks for the info. Now, is it normal for my indicator stop bath to turn purple after only two light sessions?

Dear DHD,

Drain your prints more first. Let them drip for a few seconds more.

But if it's a citric acid (odourless) bath the capacity will be a LOT less than a traditional acetic acid (vinegar-smelling) bath.

Cheers,

R.

digiconvert · Sep 11, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
Dear DHD,

Drain your prints more first. Let them drip for a few seconds more.

But if it's a citric acid (odourless) bath the capacity will be a LOT less than a traditional acetic acid (vinegar-smelling) bath.

Cheers,

R.

Now I see the Teacher coming out . Sorry if I jumped down your throat, must have been one of those moments.

Cheers CJB

Roger Hicks · Sep 11, 2006

digiconvert said:
Now I see the Teacher coming out . Sorry if I jumped down your throat, must have been one of those moments.

Cheers CJB

Dear CJB

No worries.

Cheers,

R.

Really dumb question

JLP

Bruce Osgood

Membership Council

Dave Parker

Aggie

copake_ham

Dave Parker

Donald Miller

Jerevan

David H. Bebbington

ricksplace

Roger Hicks

DieHipsterDie

Carol

joeyk49

Roger Hicks

digiconvert

Roger Hicks

MattKing

Moderator

Wade D

Roger Hicks

DieHipsterDie

Markok765

Roger Hicks

digiconvert

Roger Hicks

Really dumb question

Membership Council

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency