You are a Zonie and you have nothing better to do with your life then endlessly test film.
It seems to me that the ISO is a real speed - not the only one.
What ISO gives you is a very useful comparable - determined under well defined laboratory conditions that are not identical to the conditions in your workflow, but reasonably similar to conditions found in real life.
It is not at all surprising that your carefully determined EI for a film would differ from the ISO for that film - because your tests are not performed in the same conditions as the ISO tests are performed in. But that doesn't mean the ISO speed isn't real.
What Steve said in his links was a simplified expansion and contraction technique. It works as long as you shoot a roll under similar lighting conditions.
my personal iso for every film i shoot is between 4 and 5 stops less than box speed.
Have you ever considered that maybe it isn't the manufacturers who are to blame?
Box speed is the true speed. If you find that is not the case for you, look at your system--it isn't the film.
... If you think there is is a difference between the science and the "real world," you have probably misunderstood the science.
Just a comment here!
Kodak has ISO certification for all of the "standards" of the industry. One ISO standard is for ISO speed! This speed is determined in the lab by direct calculations and is then VERIFIED by field experiments to be correct. All Kodak films are thus verified for speed 2 ways. If they are not, then they cannot claim the ISO label for speed. Remember that ISO is a lab defined methodology. Remember that Kodak does it BOTH ways.
When I was there, the release B&W developer was D-76 straight! All developers are tested though and posted with the data on the Kodak web site.
PE
Ron do you remember when ISO replaced ASA. The most common idea seems to be 1987 which is the date of the last ISO document but I have a publication that predates that. If anybody knows you will.
I side with the "ISO speed is ISO speed period" crowd and I would like to offer a comparison.
In the digital domain, sometimes if you meter a scene "correctly" you find that the histogram does not arrive near the right edge of graph base. Some of the dynamic range of which the camera is capable is "wasted" by not using the part, near the highlights, where more details can be recorded.
So what the photographer does when taking pictures with a digital camera in such a situation? He intentionally overexposes the image, so that the histogram arrives "just" at the right end. This is known as the Expose to the Right technique, or ETTR. One valid explanation is given here:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml
Having ETTR, a photographer would not say that the real ISO sensitivity he used for the scene is different from the theoretical, or scientific, or laboratory one. He just knows that ISO sensitivity is one thing, and where you "place your highlights" is another. He places his highlights on the upper part portion of the capture range of his camera, and then he "develops" (with the raw converter) in such a way that he compensates for his "intentional mistake" (which is not a mistake) which would have caused an overexposure. He makes the most of the material he uses. He can do this because he has this second "raw conversion" step so he has an added degree of freedom with the capture step. If he had to send in real time a JPEG out of camera, and he used this ETTR technique, in this situation he would send an overexposed image. But when using raw he doesn't care if an object of 18% reflectivity does not fall into "middle grey".
Now we go back to B&W analogue photography, where I think there is some kind of "expose to the right" logic, totally analogous to the ETTR of the digital world.
Nobody uses the B&W negative "as is". You have to make it pass through a second stage, printing. So the negative is your "raw file".
You might find that, in order to have the highest detail level in the shadows, you want to place your zone I just above the foot of the negative material. Supposing that you actually want middle grey in zone V in your final print, you don't care if, so exposing, zone V in the negative does not show a middle grey, because you are going to care about this during printing. What you want, is to expose a negative that will help you in reaching the effect you want in your final print. Given this, you might find yourself "exposing to the right" your negatives.
So, saying that the film sensitivity is not the declared one, because you might have a problem with the accuracy of you shutter, or diaphragm, or lightmetre, is IMO a logical and not just a semantic mistake.
Furthermore, exposing a negative in a way that gives you, after the necessary further step of printing, a more pleasing result, can be said and practiced without questioning the exactness of the ISO speed declared for the film. The ISO speed is the ISO speed. Simply, you don't care about exposing your raw negative for having middle grey in zone V.
I personally only work with slide film. If shutter speed, diaphragms, lightmetres and film speed were not in reality what they are in the laboratory, I don't think I could expose well a slide if not by chance. I expose my slides correctly because film, diaphragm, shutter and lightmetre all behave in practice as they do in the lab. The fact that "infallibly" I obtain middle grey in zone V means that ISO speed is the "exact" value in film, the value that gives you middle grey where you expect it, on film.
Fabrizio
Ron do you remember when ISO replaced ASA. The most common idea seems to be 1987 which is the date of the last ISO document but I have a publication that predates that. If anybody knows you will.
I am curious to know if ANSI still bothers to oversee standardization for film speeds. If there is an ANSI standard, who uses it?
Ron do you remember when ISO replaced ASA. The most common idea seems to be 1987 which is the date of the last ISO document but I have a publication that predates that. If anybody knows you will.
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