Read and, perhaps, weep

Dan Fromm · Oct 20, 2018

Not sure this belongs here, but it isn't obviously digital.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/99631...t-backers-wont-get-their-lenses-or-money-back

pbromaghin · Oct 21, 2018

First I've heard of this. What were these lenses supposed to do?

AgX · Oct 21, 2018

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/a-new-range-of-german-made-lenses-for-35mm.117385/

AgX · Oct 21, 2018

That latest statement of Photoscala is premature. (That is why I did not report on it above.)
The decision to dissolve Net SE is not made (yet). However seen its latest history it seems to go under.
At the moment debtors are invited to state their claims and the firm is run by a trustee.

Ian Grant · Oct 21, 2018

pbromaghin said:
First I've heard of this. What were these lenses supposed to do?

They were supposed to be a re-introduction of the "legendary" Carl Zeiss Jena Biotar lenses, priced at around £1,000 for a 58mm f2 and more for the 75mm f1.5 they were far too expensive.

Now the lenses were copied by the Russians and used on Zenit cameras, so you can get an M42 58mm f2 Helios lens for a tiny fraction of the cost above, or you might be lucky to find a genuine 58mm f2 CZJ Biotar at a good price, I paid £35 for mine with a Praktina body. They were available in M42, Praktina and Exacta mounts, they were introduced just before WWII for Exaktas.. The 75mm f1.5 lens is a lot rarer, the last I saw sell with an M42 mount went for about £1,500, they'd be an interesting portrait lens. It's the Biotar''s rendering at wide apertures that some find desirable.

I'd rather have the real thing but like the recent Lomography Petzval some prefer to buy new even if the cost is way over the odds

Ian

Ian Grant · Oct 21, 2018

Should have added I do feel sorry for all those who crowd funded the project and have effectively been ripped off.

Ian

BrianShaw · Oct 21, 2018

Crowd funding is an investment wager... some folks win and others do not. “Getting your money back” is generally not part of the deal” if the project fails for whatever reason.

pentaxuser · Oct 21, 2018

BrianShaw said:
Crowd funding is an investment wager... some folks win and others do not. “Getting your money back” is generally not part of the deal” if the project fails for whatever reason.

Just out of interest is there any "rules" that govern Crowdfunding protocol that state what should happen in the event that a project fails to reach its investment objective or is abandoned for any reason prior to the funding being invested in capital? Or is it simply down the integrity/conscience of the project initiator?

Thanks

BrianShaw · Oct 21, 2018

pentaxuser said:
Just out of interest is there any "rules" that govern Crowdfunding protocol that state what should happen in the event that a project fails to reach its investment objective or is abandoned for any reason prior to the funding being invested in capital? Or is it simply down the integrity/conscience of the project initiator?

Thanks

What do you mean by, “Or is it simply down the integrity/conscience of the project initiator?” in the context of uninsured investing?

Even “pre-ordering” is subject to the risk of loss due to insolvency.

AgX · Oct 21, 2018

pentaxuser said:
Just out of interest is there any "rules" that govern Crowdfunding protocol that state what should happen in the event that a project fails to reach its investment objective or is abandoned for any reason prior to the funding being invested in capital? Or is it simply down the integrity/conscience of the project initiator?

Thanks

The "rule" is the law of the country the project is located in. Typically a backer should have a claim against such entrepeneur. However the trouble starts already by finding out who he is...no name, no address...

The Reflex Project only one year after cashing-in published an address.
The Elbaflex project worked behind a fake firm.

BrianShaw · Oct 21, 2018

While AgX is absolutely correct, in the US, at least, the chances of an investor or client being made whole in bankruptcy court is infinitesimal. It’s even smaller if counting on integrity/ethics of the individual/company. When, for whatever reason, the money is gone... the money is gone.

abruzzi · Oct 21, 2018

Before you get to the laws in your country, you meet to consider Kickstarter's terms of service (or the ToS of whatever crowdfunding platform used). If you buy a product from Amazon that isn’t delivered, your recourse is very different than with crowdfunding because they are not representing it as buying an item, but rather supporting a venture (though that line is very blurry). You may or may not be able to convince a court that that is not a case. If the company misrepresented things or engaged in outright fraud, you may have a stronger claim.

pentaxuser · Oct 21, 2018

BrianShaw said:
What do you mean by, “Or is it simply down the integrity/conscience of the project initiator?” in the context of uninsured investing?

Even “pre-ordering” is subject to the risk of loss due to insolvency.

Thanks, Brian. Now that Crowdfunding is a much more common occurrence I was simply wondering if there were any kind of rules under a Crowdfunding body/ authority that stated what was expected of the person or persons seeking crowdfunding support in the event that funding failed to reach the target and the person or persons could not proceed with the project but the money at that stage had not been turned into tangible assets.

It might be that the only law here is that of the jungle and standards that of a confidence trickster who can set up in effect a non existent business or token business, then fold it and walk off with all the investors money.

In effect when you invest it is solely down to you to carry out your own investigation which I suspect most do not and if your money "disappears" under what you believe to be questionable circumstances, then unless you have the time, energy and resources to try and recover your money, you have no redress.

It sounds on the surface as if crowdfunding can be a rogues charter, not much better or in the worst case, no better than a complete con trick. Have I got this correct?

I addressed my question to you simply because your post 7 caused me to think about a "what if" type of question but others with knowledge of crowdfunding please supply information as well

pentaxuser

pentaxuser · Oct 21, 2018

There was a delay in my sight of Brian's reply in #9 and my reply to that in#13 during which there have been several posts which help clarify matters which I had not seen until now. Thanks for that. So there may at least be a ToS which I was trying to refer to when using protocol.

pentaxuser

BrianShaw · Oct 21, 2018

The law of the jungle; Rogues charter... exactly right!

I know a guy who invested in a friends venture, that friend actually having excellent credentials in the area, but the venture went bust. Everyone was disappointed but it turned to rage on the part of the investor when his “bankrupt friend” then divorced his wife, bought a mansion so he and his new much younger girlfriend could live in a nice place, and also bought himself a Ferrari “because he went through so much effort and needed something to boost his confidence “. Meanwhile, the investor is struggling because he invested a significant amount and lost the bet.

I’m a very cautious investor and these kind of stories are exactly why.

pentaxuser · Oct 21, 2018

BrianShaw said:
The law of the jungle... exactly right!

I’m a very cautious investor and these kind of stories are exactly why.

Me too, Brian. The problem is that once crowdfunding gathers momentum then others join on the basis that X number of people can't be wrong and the real benefit to the instigator is that each has not lost enough to even think of taking action.

AgX mention that the Reflex Project did publish an address. If I were an investor and lived in London I'd be straight round there to check it out. It is only a short distance from a London Underground(Tube) station but if I were an investor from out of London then I'd need to try and find what kind of a place it is by other means. It might be a small flat above a shop which has been rented but I could seen no easy way of checking it out

pentaxuser

MattKing · Oct 21, 2018

The securities regulators in Canada are doing their best to bring crowd funding under their supervision, because there is such a potential for fraud.
Of course, the securities regulators haven't been exactly perfect with their efforts to protect those who invest in "traditional" investments.

blockend · Oct 21, 2018

Some companies play on people's dedication to the idea of a film community. Folk are willing to back the lamest of horses on the basis it's one of ours. There are gaps in the market for handy products that would make a film photographer's life easier. There's also frippery, buck hide camera straps sewn with silk worm eyelashes, ivory shutter buttons, lens caps that attach to a tie pin, all exist in the mind of crowd funders waiting the next mug. Then there's the wheel inventors, solutions to problems that were overcome half a century ago, fridges to Eskimos. Business pitches are not created equal.

Ian Grant · Oct 21, 2018

It would be interesting to know how many of the Crowd funded projects linked to or posted about here on APUG/PHOTRIO actually came to fruition and delivered the products. We know Intrepid did but what about all the others ?

Ian

abruzzi · Oct 21, 2018

Then there are those that deliver products, but they are (apparently) junk, like the Yashica digital camera.

blockend · Oct 21, 2018

abruzzi said:
Then there are those that deliver products, but they are (apparently) junk, like the Yashica digital camera.

Indeed, it seems to be a rebadged toy with an added metal weight and controls that don't do anything.

Arklatexian · Oct 22, 2018

BrianShaw said:
While AgX is absolutely correct, in the US, at least, the chances of an investor or client being made whole in bankruptcy court is infinitesimal. It’s even smaller if counting on integrity/ethics of the individual/company. When, for whatever reason, the money is gone... the money is gone.

You sir, have come up with a good motto: "When for whatever reason, the money is gone, the money is gone"! You could add: "unless you are lucky", but I won't........Regards!

David Brown · Oct 22, 2018

blockend said:
Some companies play on people's dedication to the idea of a film community. Folk are willing to back the lamest of horses on the basis it's one of ours. There are gaps in the market for handy products that would make a film photographer's life easier. There's also frippery, buck hide camera straps sewn with silk worm eyelashes, ivory shutter buttons, lens caps that attach to a tie pin, all exist in the mind of crowd funders waiting the next mug. Then there's the wheel inventors, solutions to problems that were overcome half a century ago, fridges to Eskimos. Business pitches are not created equal.

+1

Read and, perhaps, weep

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