Re-Washing Fiber-based paper

[Ohio Sean]

Hi, Folks,

I'm sure this question has come up in the past, but I've not been able to find where it has.

Recently I noticed the image of a fiber-based print I created about 2 years ago has begun to change as if it had not been washed thoroughly. I've only been using fiber-based paper for about that long and fear my washing technique has been insufficient. For instance--I've never used a wash aid before and just washed the prints for a very long time in running water.

My question is: can I rewash recent prints after they have dried and hanging for a couple of months, or is it too late? I'm hoping I can just get them wet, wash in a wash-aid and wash in water for the regular time and will possibly be able to avoid the trouble I described above. Is this possible?

Also--as a wash aid I'm planning to use a tablespoon of sodium sulfite to a liter of water. I've seen where people suggest using a little sodium carbonate as well. Also I've seen where people suggest using baking soda, although I'm not sure about ratios to water. What is the best approach here? I'm using Ilford rapid fixer if that is important.

Thanks!

Sean

 

[Paul Howell]

I found prints that I printed in the 70s which had not been properly fixed and washed, I soaked them in water, then refixed, washed, hypo cleaning agent and final wash, then toned. I don't think you need to add any sodium sulfite to the water, just a long wash. Lucky my prints had never been mounted, getting prints off mounting board is a b*&%^ but can be done. Never the less, my prints have damage that cannot be undone, on list to find the negatives and make a set of new prints, somewhat sad, the paper Dupont Varigram is longer made, doubt I can make an exact match.

 

[gone]

Yep, you probably won't want to get prints off their mounting board. I'd hunt up the old neg and make another print before attempting that. Assuming your prints aren't mounted and are just matted and framed (or stuck to the wall w/ masking tape at 4 corners like mine!), washing them again for a long time should do it. Not that I've ever had to do something like this. Ahem.

 

[Ohio Sean]

Hi, Guys,

This is good news! I'll just get to it then, since none of the ones I'm referring to have been mounted yet.

Paul--the sodium sulfite solution I referred to would be my hypo before final wash. Is there a better homemade option?

 

[Paul Howell]

I've used Permawash for years, like 30, before that Kodak or GAF hypo clearing , have never made my own. This is said to be PermaWash formula.

Hypo Clearing Wash Aid
Hypo Clearing Agent for film and paper
Water 750 ml
Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 100 g
Sodium Metabisulfite 25 g
Cold water to make 1000 ml
Mixing Instructions: Add chemicals in specified sequence.
Dilution: 1+4
Usage: Starting point time: 2 mins (slow constant agitation)

 

[bdial]

Just to be clear the word "hypo" on it's own refers to fixer, thus "hypo clearing agent" or "hypo clearing wash" aid is used to help remove hypo (fixer) from the paper.
I you have good reason to believe the prints were adequately fixed to begin with, I wouldn't put them in fixer again. Just rewash, perhaps along with some wash aid, and hope for the best.

 

[Paul Howell]

My prints were showing signs of inadequate fixing, I refixed to stop additional damage but of could cannot not reverse the loss of image, I will need to reprint.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Re-washing is no problem.

If your prints are showing signs of degradation, I'd re-fix in fresh fixer as well.

The wash-aid step before washing is advisable as well. I use a Tablespoon of sodium sulfite and a pinch of sodium metabisulfite (or bisulfite) per liter for my wash-aid. The metabisulfite/bisulfite is not strictly necessary, but adjust the wash aid to optimum pH for it to work best.

So: 1. soak prints in water for five minutes 2. re-fix in fresh fixer. 3. rinse prints for five minutes in running water 4. wash aid (I like 5-10 minutes with agitation) 5. wash 60 minutes minimum in slowly running water.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Murray Kelly]

Alan Johnson recently posted a link to a collection of formulae by Dignan.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/150-dyi-black-and-white-formulas-dignan.183216/
About halfway down is an article about hypo eliminator and how to improve it.
Basically involves a bath of KBr 1g in 1L and that's it. Archival prints.

 

[ic-racer]

Once fixer dries on your prints it becomes insoluble.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Once fixer dries on your prints it becomes insoluble.

How so?

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Recently I noticed the image of a fiber-based print I created about 2 years ago has begun to change as if it had not been washed thoroughly.

Could you describe the change you are seeing. Is the image showing brown faded spots, bronzing, stains, dark spots ...

 

[Don_ih]

How so?

Quickly looking it up, ammonium thiosulphate (rapid fixer) dissolves in water at room temperature. Sodium thiosulphate, however, requires water to be 50 degrees Celsius. That may be considered too hot for print emulsion - especially if the water is running over it for an hour.

And, of course, that has nothing to say about chemical changes that may have occurred upon drying. It may just be impossible to soak out the fixer to the degree possible before the print dries.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Alan Johnson recently posted a link to a collection of formulae by Dignan.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/150-dyi-black-and-white-formulas-dignan.183216/
About halfway down is an article about hypo eliminator and how to improve it.
Basically involves a bath of KBr 1g in 1L and that's it. Archival prints.

Murray,

The article you refer to relies on research done long ago with microfilm and recommends a modified HE-1 formula, basically HE-1 with the addition of some KBr for complete removal of thiosulfates from microfilm. Kodak and others stopped recommending HE-1 (peroxide-based Hypo Eliminator) for general use quite some time ago, so I would hesitate to recommend the modified formula either. Dignan does follow that article with the usual formula for a sodium-sulfate-based wash aid, basically just sulfite and bisulfite as has been mentioned a time or two in this thread already.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Murray Kelly]

Thanks Doremus. I presume you mean sulphite based wash-aid. Haven't done any wet prints in years and the films all look OK!
Some of these old ideas coming around again like MCM 100 and DK-50 etc.

 

[ic-racer]

How so?

Not sure of the chemistry, but I can't remove dried fixer from bottles, lids, tanks, reels. Not sure how it could be removed from fiber paper either.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Not sure of the chemistry, but I can't remove dried fixer from bottles, lids, tanks, reels. Not sure how it could be removed from fiber paper either.

Very true. Hadn't thought of it that way. Old fixer does throw sulfur that sticks like the dickens. I've tried using sulfuric acid to clean it off with no luck. Maybe lye would work? Can't think either could be recommended for washing residual fixer gunk out of paper.

 

[Paul Howell]

Not sure of the chemistry, but I can't remove dried fixer from bottles, lids, tanks, reels. Not sure how it could be removed from fiber paper either.

Hadn't thought of that, dug out my residual hypo test kit from Photographers Formulary and tested the prints I rewashed, they were clean,

 

[M Carter]

I use residual hypo test every session, on most every print. Stuff is priceless.

I've found a solid initial rinse, followed by HCA (I just use sodium sulphite, cheap by the pound) and a warm-ish wash in running water will get fiber prints clean in 25 minutes or so. In the past I used to add canning salt to the initial wash tank as well (dissolve it in a bit of warm water), some people say "about anything" speeds washing, others have told me salt doesn't do anything - not a chemist though! Tim Rudman's hypo clear recipe in one of his lith books is sodium sulphite and table salt.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Thanks Doremus. I presume you mean sulphite based wash-aid. Haven't done any wet prints in years and the films all look OK!
Some of these old ideas coming around again like MCM 100 and DK-50 etc.

Sulfite indeed. Sorry for the typo and any resulting confusion. I wish I could go back and edit, but there's a time limit (why..??).

Doremus

 

[MattKing]

I wish I could go back and edit, but there's a time limit (why..??).

Because there are a whole bunch of people who love to revise history, and after the fact changes can render a useful thread un-intelligible.
If it is important, and your follow-up doesn't adequately deal with it, then a moderator can make the edit for you. Just "Report" your own erroneous post, and request the edit.
I would generally limit that to things that bring rise to a safety issue, or to recipes where following the erroneous instructions will create an unfortunate result.