Re-Invigorating the Monthly Shooting Assignment (MSA)

Was it ever decided whether multiple entries were permitted? I do not see any restrictions in the rules.

AFAIK multiple entries are okay with the MSA rules.

We considered limiting the number of entries, but I don't believe that decision was ever taken (as our UK members would say).

MattKing said:

We considered limiting the number of entries, but I don't believe that decision was ever taken (as our UK members would say).

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I joined up a few weeks ago and saw some activity on the most recent MSA posting and took a look, got excited about the whole idea... then read this posting and looked over the MSA guidelines for analog only. Looks like I won't likely be participating much in that since I shoot mostly digital at this time. That's quite a bummer since this looked rather exciting to share my work with my peers as we all worked towards a common vision...

dbottaro said:

I joined up a few weeks ago and saw some activity on the most recent MSA posting and took a look, got excited about the whole idea... then read this posting and looked over the MSA guidelines for analog only. Looks like I won't likely be participating much in that since I shoot mostly digital at this time. That's quite a bummer since this looked rather exciting to share my work with my peers as we all worked towards a common vision...

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Thanks Dennis for your comment.
Part of the rationale for this particular group effort is that the built in delay that comes from originating everything on film forms part of the challenge in a time limited Group effort.
There is lots of room on Photrio for more such group efforts, so feel free to organize one where digital or digital and film entries are encouraged. I'm confident there are people who will happily participate in both..

As per @koraks comment on the current msa, about whether or not digital images should be permitted: I noticed the digital photos submitted to the thread but didn't see any good reason to protest, since it was only two and the rules could be reiterated at the beginning of the next round. I don't have any problem with digital photos at all, but I don't think the MSA is the proper place for them. Allowing "old" photos was a compromise to get more participation and it seems to have worked. People are showing photos that fit the category and they have been, almost without exception, film photos.

I doubt there would be a million photos posted to the thread if it was opened up to digital. But it would detract from the character of the assignment. The assignment is currently something that can be done by film photography enthusiasts and hobbyists and people who just happen to use film cameras. So, in a sense, it really is about film capture specifically.

And participation has been pretty good recently. If it starts to drop off again, maybe allowing digital should be considered. But it won't be the same "assignment".

Don_ih said:

didn't see any good reason to protest

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For the record; someone else did (although 'protest' would be a bit too much to say; they highlighted the issue) and that's why I stepped in.

I haven't participated in the MSA (changing the guidelines wouldn't change this), so please take my reflections as mere suggestions for further discussion, only. I have followed the submissions from time to time and have enjoyed the creativity and sometimes originality of the photos posted.

The MSA, as far as I can tell, is a fun way to foster creativity by setting both a theme and a timeframe. As such, it seems to be about the resulting image more so than about technique. And in this vein, I personally would expect that digital submissions are just as permissible as analog-originating ones.

@MattKing offered an argument against digital submissions on the basis of the timeframe: the challenge of producing an analog image would be greater than a digital one. However, as I interpret the MSA, it's not so much focused on the technical challenge of meeting a certain deadline, or 'process prowess'. It appears to be about the final image and how it ties conceptually into the main theme.

Another argument I've seen offered elsewhere on Photrio is that by allowing digital images in whatever photo categories we have, would 'inundate' the forum with digital imagery and "the internet is already chock full of that and we don't need any more of it." (I'm paraphrasing posts I recall on this topic). To me, this argument doesn't seem to hold much water, since in several threads we already allow digital photos, and they remain only a minority of the imagery presented.

Moreover, we demographic of Photrio continues to be biased rather heavily in the direction of film/analog interests and as such, it's not very likely to expect that digital imagery would magically start to dominate this forum. In case this does happen (and I would celebrate the apparent massive influx of new photographers to this forum that would be at the basis of such a development!), we could always create an 'analog-only MSA'. In other words: perhaps it's not really necessary to fix a problem that does not yet exist, and perhaps never will exist.

All considered, from my perspective I see no pressing reasons to continue to exclude digital imagery from the MSA. My argument is not so much that it would foster more active participation, but mostly because (1) the arguments against it do not seem very compelling or convincing to me, and (2) it seems like a courtesy to include in this activity also those members of our community who happen to prefer digital capture.

Just my $0.02 from my convenient armchair position of a passive observer, of course.

I remain MSA old school, and like the analog origination only.
Part of my comfort in that is the fact that there are now many more opportunities in other parts of the site to share digital camera images: the Galleries, the "Post your landscape photos here" (and the like) and as part of many other threads.
And has been said elsewhere, if someone wants to start another image sharing activity where digital capture is welcome, I'll do whatever I can to support it, including participating from time to time. Perhaps a "WSA" - Weekly Shooting Assignment?

Need to specify all photos need to be submitted by "wirephoto" all analog scan.

koraks said:

allowing digital images in whatever photo categories we have, would 'inundate' the forum with digital imagery

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Yeah - I purposely tried to avoid that particular bit of silliness.

I will take what I spent the morning doing as an example. I wanted to get one more photo to post in this month's theme (since I already have it plastered, what's one more?). So, I set things up to take that photo - shot two strips of film (the first was underexposed and underdeveloped) - the second is probably just now dry - I want to make a print to scan, but have not yet done that. And all of that is somewhat interesting to me (whether or not the image is banal).

Or I could have used my phone and posted it immediately.

So, I do think it is about the process. That's one of the reasons I appreciate the actual "new" submissions more than the "old" ones. But that's all just how I view it - which is not to dismiss my own opinion but more to underline that that is where I find the value in the exercise.

I like looking at the other photos. But I find the reason for me to post there is the film-based nature of the assignment.

Don_ih said:

But I find the reason for me to post there is the film-based nature of the assignment.

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Yes, and I would feel the same way if I were to participate. But I can also see that for others, their reasons for participating may be different. And even so, the process may still be an important part of the motivation. Where for you (and probably for me, hypothetically speaking) handling the materials would be a relevant factor, I can see how setting up a scene/shot and digital post processing would serve the same purpose for someone else. And yet others may indeed prefer to snap a shot with their phone so they can focus on the actual image/capture/moment. From my point of view, it would all be valid.

koraks said:

From my point of view, it would all be valid.

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It is all valid, but that doesn't mean having an activity that is exclusively film-based isn't also valid.

I'm relatively new to the MSA, and as it is a film based part of our forum, I value it a lot.

Don_ih said:

It is all valid, but that doesn't mean having an activity that is exclusively film-based isn't also valid.

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I'm not one of those who objected digital content in the past. In fact, I value it. That said, I feel that a strictly film based monthly shooting assignment is preferable.

Don_ih said:

It is all valid, but that doesn't mean having an activity that is exclusively film-based isn't also valid.

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But one of these valid approaches is inclusive to all Photrio members, whereas the other only includes those willing to put away their digital for it. For me, that would make the choice an obvious one, since a couple of digital submissions wouldn't harm the MSA in any way. Unless people would stop participating just out of spite, of course, but let's assume a more constructive stance.

koraks said:

But one of these valid approaches is inclusive to all Photrio members, whereas the other only includes those willing to put away their digital for it

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Which is absolutely fine. No one is excluded. They just need to use a film camera. You wouldn't expect to enter a watercolour into an oil-painting competition.

I hope to participate more after retirement; I just can't concentrate on any photography until that "chore" is accomplished at the end of this year.

Don_ih said:

You wouldn't expect to enter a watercolour into an oil-painting competition.

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The question on the table is whether the MSA is an analog-only competition. So far, the only argument I see being repeated is tautological: it is analog only because it's analog only. Does it have to be? I don't think so.

koraks said:

So far, the only argument I see being repeated is tautological: it is analog only because it's analog only.

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The activity is analog and there is merit to retaining that restriction. A preference needs no objective justification to be a preference.

As for tautological: if I specify "Put only red things in this box", the statement "The red things in the box are in the box because they are red" is not tautological and the specification is a perfectly good reason to not put blue things in the box. It's the same with photos posted in the MSA thread.

But it is only a preference.

Don_ih said:

The activity is analog and there is merit to retaining that restriction.

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What is the merit? Apart from your personal preference?

koraks said:

What is the merit? Apart from your personal preference?

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The preference is the merit.

So, if there was a "Post your prints from wet-plate portraits here" thread, would someone expect to be able to post a scan of a Polaroid from a Big Shot? Even though it's a portrait, it doesn't meet the requirements. There's no good reason to not allow Polaroids, but the specification is "wet-plate". Someone may say the portraits are what matter so the process should be dismissed. I don't think that argument would hold much water in that instance, though. In the instance of my example, what people want and expect to see: wet plate portraits.

There are potentially many good reasons to allow digital photos in the MSA. However, they will always be powerless against the plain statement "But I want it to be film photos". That's just one of the ways in which rationalization can fail. The MSA is established and changes have to be desired. If everyone wants it to stay the same, reasons to change it are ineffective.

Well, until everyone stops participating.

The analogy with the 'wet plate portraits' example doesn't work because neither in the concept of the MSA, nor its name, it's embedded that it needs to be film-based. See my post #34.

Don_ih said:

The MSA is established and changes have to be desired.

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Digital material was submitted. Apparently someone wanted to participate, but technically couldn't. That's why I highlighted the issue.

koraks said:

neither in the concept of the MSA, nor its name, it's embedded that it needs to be film-based

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It is explicit in the Guidelines. And also here:

Don_ih said:

A reminder - shot on film please.

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(although that was actually @MattKing )

Anyway, yes, someone wanted to participate with digital images. But apparently someone else didn't want that to happen. Since the rules are established, there has to be sufficient desire to change them. Currently, there seems to be no such desire from the people who participate in the activity - including the owner of the activity (Matt). Really, a handful of people participate. If a similar handful started and participated in a digital version, that would be fine, too. They could even exclude film photos, if they wanted. It doesn't make sense to think someone is being unfairly excluded from something they aren't doing in the first place.

And @MattKing could rectify the situation by adding the word "Film" between "Monthly" and "Shooting".

More people are free to chime in. I think you and I have said pretty much all we can say about it.