RC Warmtone with HARMAN Warmtone

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Sep 19, 2006

I've been printing a batch of photos over the weekend using Ilford MGIV Warmtone in RC and HARMAN warmtone developer. I was a bit underwhelmed.

My expectations were to get some near-chocolate browns (wt paper + wt dev!), but I got a slightly off-black color on the light cream base of the paper. In fact, MGIV RC WT developped in Dektol 1+2 is almost the same as developped in Harman WT. Normal MGIV RC developped in WT dev looks pretty neutral, almost coldtone-blue!

I then tried MGIV FB in WT dev, and got slightly off-neutral blacks, but not much more.

So all in all, the Ilford warmtone experience has been rather weak for me. The only relevant VC paper left out from the Ilford line is thus FB WT. Would this paper give some true warmtone, or should I just forget about it and buy J&C museum (Fortezzo) instead?

blansky · Sep 19, 2006

I get pretty warm tones off Zonal Pro warmtone developer and also off the new ilford warmtone developers.

To get them, I tone in selenium afterwards and the tone comes out.

Michael

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Sep 19, 2006

Michael, do you use FB or RC paper? Does that make a difference? Or is it really due to the selenium toning?

rusty71 · Sep 19, 2006

I recall that the FB version gets warmer the longer you wash it. The optical brighteners can wash out and leave a creamy base.
That said, to get the warmest tones out of any paper requires toning in a chemical bath. Sulfide (sepia) and selenium toners work beautifully with Ilford warmtone. Kodak used to make a wonderful polytoner too. Make several prints off the same negative. Tone some in each bath, and leave one untoned. Take judicious notes and eventually you'll achieve the results you're after.

blansky · Sep 19, 2006

mhv said:
Michael, do you use FB or RC paper? Does that make a difference? Or is it really due to the selenium toning?

I use FB but if I remember correctly the RC tones too but not quite as much. But I think you need the selenium to really get much of a tone on any warmtone paper.

Michael

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Sep 19, 2006

Interesting, I didn't know that toning was necessary. I'll read up a bit on toning procedures and try my hands at a print or two.

dolande · Sep 20, 2006

I don't have experience in this myself, but a pro that uses the same community darkroom I use gets very good tones out of begger warmtone paper. He also pre-flash the paper to get warmer tones (?). There is no warmtone developer at the darkroom. I think they use Sprint chemicals.

Hope this help

rafael

Bob F. · Sep 20, 2006

I've only used the Ilford Warmtone developer on Kentmere Kentona so far, so can't really comment on other papers but MGIV is somewhat famous (notorious? ) for resisting tonal change in most developers and single-bath toners (such as selenium or gold).

I would have expected some shift in MGIV Warmtone however. Chocolate without toning is perhaps being a bit hopeful though.

The attachment is a work print on Kentona (will need a lower contrast paper with this negative so I gave up on this combination) but hopefully shows the tone possible with Ilford Warmtone on this paper.

Cheers, Bob.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Sep 20, 2006

Hi Bob, that was the type of tone I was looking for. Did you process in selenium after printing?

Bob F. · Sep 20, 2006

mhv said:
Hi Bob, that was the type of tone I was looking for. Did you process in selenium after printing?

Nope: Kentona is well known for its colour shift ability (hence the name) so I'm not too surprised it changed tone so much but I would not really expect MGIV of any type to do the same. You could try diluting the Ilford developer more - that tends to give warmer tones with most developers - it did work somewhat with Neutol WA when I tried it. It does increase development times though.

The downside of the Kentona is that it is only available in Grade 2 so you have to be a lot more careful with adjusting development times to make the negative fit the paper for different subject lighting conditions - more careful than I tend to be...

If you check out my image in the gallery of St Beda's Church, that is a similar tone but was obtained by using a light sepia (thiocarbamide) tone on a normal VC paper (Kentmere Fineprint). You might also look at Agfa Viradon if you can find some - a "brown" toner - Polysulphide based I think.

Cheers, Bob.

blansky · Sep 20, 2006

mhv said:
Hi Bob, that was the type of tone I was looking for. Did you process in selenium after printing?

Send a personal mail to Tim Rudman. Go to the source.

Michael

Les McLean · Sep 20, 2006

mhv said:
Hi Bob, that was the type of tone I was looking for. Did you process in selenium after printing?

Normal selenium toning will cool Ilford Warmtone to a plummy colour and at the same time increase the contrast. I have no problems in achieving a rich warm tone using the combination of Ilford Warmtone paper and their new Warmtone developer.

There are several ways to increase the warmth of any paper/developer comination, for example:
Make a test strip and decide on the exposure that gives you the required tonality but when making the print increase the exposure time by about 30% and decrease the development time by about 50%. This will warm the print colour and reduce the contrast so you must bear that in mind when choosing the grade used to make the print. The above %'s are starting points and I would asvise you to experiment to determine what best works for you.

Adding about 10 to 15ml of a 10% Bromide solution to your working strength developer will also warm to print colour but too much will give a green cast ans could considerably reduce the contrast.

Drying warm tone fibre paper very quickly in a micro wave will warm up the print colour but you will have to deal with the problem of flattening the paper but it can be done. However, if you make 12 x 16 prints where can you find a micro wave that big.

Finally, slenium toning Ilford Warmtone fibre paper for something like 9 hours followed by a wash and 8/9 hours in gold toner followed by a wash will produce very interesting warm or plummy tone shadows and cool tone higher values.

psvensson · Sep 20, 2006

Forte Polywarmtone will give a near chocolate brown in a warmtone developer, even though it doesn't have a cream base.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Sep 20, 2006

Les, I suppose you work more with FB paper than RC, so I am curious as to whether the Ilford FB would give me a better warmtone than the RC? Thanks also for the starting %, I'll try that next time (still have some dev left).

pentaxuser · Sep 21, 2006

For what it is worth I was reading the new Firstcall (UK based photo supplies mail order house) brochure today. It gives tips on various aspect of photography. It rates all Ilford paper highly, especially Warmtone but interestingly suggests development in Fotospeed WA10 or better still Variospeed W from Tetenal to bring out the subtle warm colour.

So reading between the lines, this suggests to me that Firstcall believes that either of these developers and especially Tetenal gives a warmer colour than Ilford's own.

Does anyone have any experience of printing with both Ilford Warmtone developer and either of the two mentioned and if so what differences has he seen.

Thanks

pentaxuser

tim rudman · Sep 21, 2006

pentaxuser said:
It rates all Ilford paper highly, especially Warmtone but interestingly suggests development in Fotospeed WA10 or better still Variospeed W from Tetenal to bring out the subtle warm colour.

Does anyone have any experience of printing with both Ilford Warmtone developer and either of the two mentioned and if so what differences has he seen.
Thanks
pentaxuser

The fotospeed WT dev is very effective and like many WT devs offers a range of results depending on dilutions and development times, progressive relative under development giving smaller grain size and warmer image colour.

A word of warning however with regard to suggestions for increasing image warmth by toning - warm tone images acheived by minimal development in WT developers often tone very poorly due to the reduced amount of silver for the toners to work with. (see The Toning Book)
Tim

don sigl · Sep 22, 2006

Nelsons Gold Toner produces the cleanest warm tones of any process I've tried. You have to mix it yourself, and its a bit of a pain to use, (must be kept at 110F, but if you want rich brown blacks, its the best. it also has the ability to increase density in the blacks, while leaving the highlights alone.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Oct 6, 2006

I picked some KRST today and made some tests with the RC photos I had printed, and after toning procedure they did not show any change at all. I went 1+19 for about 10+ minutes, and nada.

On the other hand, JandC Nuance graded paper turned to a very pleasing deep chocolate after some 8 minutes of toning. It's exactly what I was looking for, so I might as well stick to it for the future.

ContaxGman · Oct 11, 2006

I'm a little late to this party and you may have already moved on but here's my 2 cents. I've not tried Ilford's new warmtone developer but have used Agfa's Neutol WA and the Zonal Pro warm developer in the past. As to Ilford's MGIV my impression is that the developer has almost nothing to do with its ultimate tone in the RC variety. A warm developer will warm it a little in the FB form, but not much. Also it has been my experience that really with any RC paper the type of developer doesn't have much to do with the ultimate tone. So using MGIV RC and trying to warm it up some with a developer is to start out with 2 strikes already. I'm not sure why, but I've never noticed much difference in MGWT RC even if a warm tone developer were used. However in its FB variety the developer can make a difference, although selinium toning is still needed to maximize it. I usually use selinium at about a 1:5 dilution for warmtone papers which brings the toning time down considerably, but use about a 1:19 on the MGIV which also only needs a few minutes to do its work. Another approach may be MGIV toned in Kodak Brown Toner. It takes forever (15-20 minutes) at room temperature, but I really like the cool, purplish brown it gives.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Oct 11, 2006

Hi Contax, I did notice that RC papers don't seem to react much to developers. Apparently, and from what I read around, Ilford papers are notorious for being "stable", even the FB and the graded ones to a certain extant. I got some J&C Nuance Graded paper and it is much more flexible in terms of toning, so it might just be my new fine print paper.

gchpaco · Oct 13, 2006

I don't know whether the Harman warmtone developer is capable of this, but I do know that I have gotten a dramatically warmer tone from Forte Polywarmtone in Zonal Warmtone than I did from the same paper in Neutol WA. I can't think of any chemical reason why the RC papers should be less sensitive than the fiber papers, although of course the emulsion makeup could be slightly different.

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