RC papers

I'm familiar with almost every FB paper type available today but have little knowledge of today's RC papers. How do Ilford MG warmtone and cooltone compare to their standard Deluxe peper? Is there a difference in base colour, pearl surface perhaps (I'm asking this because their FB 1K - glossy varies). Is anyone familiar with the Fomatone warmtone line of RC papers - as thin as Fomaspeed Variant? As for ADOX, I understand it's practically indistinguishable from what AGFA offered years ago, but on a whiter base. Thanks.

In my experience Ilford RC WT in a WT developer appears only slightly warmer than Ilford MG if examined by itself. When compared side by side with Ilford MG paper then the difference is clearer. However my "slightly warmer" might be your "clearly warmer"

Ilford CT in the former Ilford CT developer was very much cooler than MG in MG developer - almost an icy blue/grey look.

I never bothered to try either Ilford WT or CT paper in MG developer. I only used the WT or CT developer. My guess is that in the case of WT paper then using MG developer will reduce the warmth to very slight indeed but in the case of CT paper the cool effect may be a little greater, simply based on my findings with WT and CT paper using the WT and CT developers

In other words it seems to me that the intrinsic warmth in WT paper without the appropriate developer is less than the intrinsic coolness in CT without its appropriate developer

pentaxuser

Hi Pentaxuser, thanks for your insight. Warmth aside, do pictures printed on WT / CT look different (better?) compared to MG Deluxe? I understand d-max is better with the former. I wish Harman would update their RC Deluxe as they did their FB IV.

The Ilford CT paper in the former Ilford CT developer was a little too icy/bluish for my general liking for most subjects but I am sure there will be certain subjects and scenes that are better in CT paper and CT developer.

I would need to re-examine my WT prints in WT developer but my memory of this combo at the time was that it wasn't different/better enough to justify the expense of this combination although I am sure that like CT paper and CT developer there will be certain subjects and scenes that are improved

I think I am saying that on balance the vast majority of my prints suit me as MG paper in a neutral developer such as MG.

However this may not be your feeling when you try it.

Remember that it might be that other paper makes such as Fotospeed will give greater warmth either in MG type developer or in WT developer than Ilford WT did. I don't know because these are combinations I haven't tried.

On the other hand but based on the use of Ilford CT developer only as I haven't tried others, I think it would be difficult to find a more "steely grey/blue cold looking print than Ilford CT paper with Ilford CT developer. In one or two scenes I printed the look I got even came close to a print toned in gold-toner

pentaxuser

I regularly use Ilford standard MG RC paper, and their warmtone, both in standard MG developer. There is a very subtle difference. I think it's unlikely that you would see a print on the wall made on warmtone and recognise it as such. It's only when you put it next to one made on standard MG paper that you can see the difference in a slightly cream paper base and slightly warmer blacks. However, I've never been a great fan of cooler prints so I love it, in fact it's my favourite paper, especially in a pearl finish. The other advantage is that it selenium tones nicely, really warming up if you want it to, while the standard RC in selenium cools down slightly and get's a slightly higher D-Max. I've never played with warmtone developers so don't know how they would affect the final print.

Thanks. Anyone perhaps know how do ADOX MCP and Ilford MG Warmtone compare?

I change image color with toning not with paper selection.
I can get a nice neutral warm from MGIV with sulphide toningand a cooler look with selenium.

I do the same with the matt version of MGIV FB, it really turns cool with enhanced d-max when toned in strong Harman selenium. With RC I'm happy with MGRC Deluxe glossy developed in Harman Warmtone developer - I much prefer it to their regular Multigrade developer. But I keep reading how better the warmtone cousin (MG RC Warmtone) is. I would try it myself but it's never in stock at my vendor.

The thing is I'm switching to RC for all the enlargements from 35, (FB in tiny formats for 4x5 contacts stays) so I'm reconsidering my paper of choice - I've started when MG RC III was the standard and pretty much the only quality paper I could get. I soon abandoned it in favour of FB, but times and my requirements have changed and my time is much more limited than it once was.

xtolsniffer said:

I regularly use Ilford standard MG RC paper, and their warmtone, both in standard MG developer. There is a very subtle difference. I think it's unlikely that you would see a print on the wall made on warmtone and recognise it as such. It's only when you put it next to one made on standard MG paper that you can see the difference in a slightly cream paper base and slightly warmer blacks. However, I've never been a great fan of cooler prints so I love it, in fact it's my favourite paper, especially in a pearl finish. The other advantage is that it selenium tones nicely, really warming up if you want it to, while the standard RC in selenium cools down slightly and get's a slightly higher D-Max. I've never played with warmtone developers so don't know how they would affect the final print.

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RalphLambrecht said:

I change image color with toning not with paper selection.
I can get a nice neutral warm from MGIV with sulphide toningand a cooler look with selenium.

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Well I do both. The first point is really relevant - there is only a slight difference between most WT papers, Ilford WT included, and neutral papers when they are untoned. But they respond very, very differently to toning.

I tone virtually all of my prints, neutral and cool ones in selenium because they generally cool a bit, lose the ugly green tinge that they all seem to have and that you may not notice until you tone it away and then you can't fail to notice forever after, and gain D-max, albeit sometimes subtly. Warm tone papers (for me that's Ilford MGWT FB now) I develop in WT developer and typically tone in brown toner, though it can also take on a very appealing warmth in selenium where neutral papers cool, as the previous poster said. This is a more reddish warmth than the more yellow/brown of brown or sepia toners.

The differences untoned are really only clearly apparent side by side, but the different response to toners is drastic.

No experience with RC WT papers, sorry. The MGIV regular RC seemed to be a pretty close match, tonality wise, for the previous MGIV FB. I've not used the new neutral or cool FB papers yet but plan to when I get lower on my stock of Adox MCC 110.

Roger Cole said:

Well I do both. The first point is really relevant - there is only a slight difference between most WT papers, Ilford WT included, and neutral papers when they are untoned. But they respond very, very differently to toning.

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Roger, I disagree with the first part as there is a clear difference even among the warm tone papers alone, namely Bergger CB (from the days of Hungarian Forte), Ilford Warmtone FB, Adox Variotone and Fomatone 131 - they all look distinctively different to each other untoned, the difference is of course even greater, as you say, when toned; Adox Variotone split tones easily when strongly selenium toned, Bergger goes light brow, Foma chocolate brown, etc..

All OT though as I'm interested in RC papers only as indicated in the title of the thread.

I think you misread it or I didn't write it very clearly. I didn't mean there wasn't much difference between different WT papers. I meant that the difference between a WT paper and a neutral paper is still fairly subtle until they are toned. It's there, but it's not a big glaring difference like, say, the difference between a selenium toned Ilford MG Classic or CT print and a brown toned WT print.

The point that the differences are fairly minor until they are toned and that WT and neutral papers respond very differently to toners is still valid for RC (or at least in in my limited experiments with toning RC prints.)

I didn't misread, I said:

Roger, I disagree with the first part as there is a clear difference even among the warm tone papers alone

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And the difference between warm tone an neutral tone papers, untoned, is even greater. And I have prined on Fomabrom Variant, Adox MCC, Agfa MCC, Ilford MG IV, Efke Varicon, plus the before mentioned warm tone papers.

Ok then, we just disagree.

I recently printed the same print on Ilford MGWT and on Adox MCC 110. I developed the WT in Harman WT developer, the Adox in LPD 1+2. Untoned, up close I have to make a point to look to tell the difference. From 10 feet away I can't tell the difference. I'm not at all sure I could from five feet away. To me that's subtle. Maybe to you it isn't. Or maybe I'm just not as sensitive as you are to differences in image tone, though I seem to be far more sensitive to it than any non-photographers I ask about it (who can't tell the difference in those prints even up close, until I point it out.)

Miha, there are a couple of Fotospeed RC users on FADU, one of whom, if I recall correctly has Fotospeed RC in WT developer as a favourite in terms of what I presume to warmth compared to Ilford RC WT.

You might want to ask there and see if the friend(s) there can scan examples so you may judge what difference there is for yourself

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

Miha, there are a couple of Fotospeed RC users on FADU, one of whom, if I recall correctly has Fotospeed RC in WT developer as a favourite in terms of what I presume to warmth compared to Ilford RC WT.

You might want to ask there and see if the friend(s) there can scan examples so you may judge what difference there is for yourself

pentaxuser

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Yes, it's Richard who uses and favours the above mentioned combination for warmer results. I don't, at least not always, plus the paper is only available in the UK, unlike their chemistry. Thanks.

Roger Cole said:

... I seem to be far more sensitive to it than any non-photographers I ask about it...

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Aren't we all I feel it would be pointless to explain these things to an non-photographer sometimes.