RC Paper Wet Time

[Alan9940]

Other than some photography classes in college back in the early 70's, I've never printed on RC papers. However, I've recently taken a liking to Ilford RC MGWT Pearl and I know wet time should be minimized with RC papers. I can spend 2-3 hours in the darkroom, especially when working toward a final print, and following the fixer I toss the prints into a holding bath of water until I'm finished. Is it okay to leave RC paper in water for that long? How do you all handle these papers?

 

[Eric Rose]

I have never had any issues with modern RC papers being in the water for at least 2.5 hours. At that point I usually need a break and then that's when the get a final 5 minute running water wash and then hung to dry.

 

[jimjm]

Alan - I try not to leave RC paper in the wash for more than 5 or 10 minutes. I have seen RC paper begin to separate at the corners if left to soak for extended periods, but I don't know if this is characteristic of all brands. I go from the fixer to a large holding tray of water for a few mins, then to the final wash tray with a siphon system. I usually put 2 prints in the final wash at the same time and leave them for at least 5 mins. Then squeegee and hang to dry. For longer print sessions I'll dump and replace the water in the holding tray after a few dozen prints, as it becomes infused with fixer.

 

[Ian Grant]

Depends on the water pH and temperature, personally I wouldn't go more than half an hour with RC papers the edge can start to take in water and swell, that can cause issues when dried.

I try to keep RC paper wash times to around 10 to 15 minutes, I've seen the same as Jim with all makes of RC paper.

Ian

 

[Oren Grad]

IMO RC papers are best processed individually to completion, not batched like FB papers. The recommended processing cycle for Ilford RC papers is so short that this is practical to do - read the processing instructions in the Ilford paper data sheet if you haven't already done that.

My typical processing cycle for an Ilford RC paper is 60-90 seconds in developer, a 30 second interval in which the developer is drained, the paper is agitated in stop bath for about 15 seconds and then drained again, 30 seconds continuous agitation in film-strength rapid fixer without hardener, then 2 minutes and 30 seconds wash with a Kodak tray siphon. If I'm selenium toning, as I usually do for "keepers", I'll do a 2 minute initial wash, tone for 2 minutes with continuous agitation, then a final wash for 2 minutes and 30 seconds.

The only batching I do with RC is that if I'm running two identical copies of a print, I'll sometimes run the first one through develop-stop-fix and then let it sit in the wash tray for the three minutes or so that it takes me to expose the second one and run it through develop-stop-fix. Then I'll wash the two together. This still keeps overall wet time well within Ilford's recommended 15-minute limit.

 

[silveror0]

...I've never printed on RC papers. However, I've recently taken a liking to Ilford RC MGWT Pearl and I know wet time should be minimized with RC papers. I can spend 2-3 hours in the darkroom, especially when working toward a final print, and following the fixer I toss the prints into a holding bath of water until I'm finished. Is it okay to leave RC paper in water for that long?...

Alan, the answer to your question can be found in the horse's mouth:
https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1949/product/753/

"Prolonged immersion in water can cause edge penetration and print curl with resin coated papers; for this reason, avoid wet times longer than 15 minutes."

 

[Ian Grant]

IMO RC papers are best processed individually to completion, not batched like FB papers. The recommended processing cycle for Ilford RC papers is so short that this is practical to do - read the processing instructions in the Ilford paper data sheet if you haven't already done that.

Back in the 1970's early 80's I had a specialist photographic business and rented a factory, there was already a commercial photographer in half the top floor, and as we had no cross over in terms of our potential customers he stayed as my sub tenant.

We'd help each other out, and I'd help particularly when he had long print runs, we'd always do this in the evening late into the night. Now by long print runs we are talking about hundreds of prints of each of many negatives. We'd take it in turns printing, and the other would process, and wash, then feed the drier (a rotary glazer turned low). We always kept wash times below half an hour but batch processing worked well. maybe it was the way we kept prints moving in the wash. I've batch processed after fix ever since.

An aside Alan who I was helping was an amazing B&W printer, had no enlarger timer and didn't time development and his print consistency was amazing, everything was done by eye. I found after many thousands of prints I could do the same but I prefer to use timers however it means I get in the ball park.

Ian

 

[Alan9940]

Instructions? Who reads those things? It would seem that I need to educate myself a bit concerning processing of RC papers. Based on this great feedback, it sounds like a solid plan is to process all the way through to drying. This will be quite different for me, since I've always done "batch processing" with FB papers. Not a biggie...just a different way to think.

Thanks all for your input!

 

[Eric Rose]

Before you go totally in one direction or another try each one and see what works for you.

 

[Luckless]

I feel like this question somewhat depends on what specifically you're doing: One off prints vs small copy vs larger batch runs as far as risk management goes.

If I push my luck and spoil 1 in 100 prints that I made in 1/10th the time as a batch vs what it would have taken to do each end-to-end individually, then I would be less annoyed at it than if I had been careless and spoiled a one off print that I had forgotten in a wash tank.

Personally I'm aiming to start my first real darkroom printing 'project' later this year that would require dozens of copies of a few images, and I'm on the fence with how best to process things.

For my small 4x5 print project I am thinking that the logical process would be to do a large batch of exposures, then take my box of exposed sheets over for wet processing all in one go, rather than flipping back and forth between dry and wet work. Sounds sensible in my head, but I'm left wondering just how large of a batch it makes sense to push things with.

Dev tank time and agitation feel like they're the only real time critical points, while all the other stages seem like it isn't really going to matter how much I fudge their timings as long as I'm not forgetting them there for ages and had hit at least min-time for fix and wash. Am I setting myself up for more of a headache than I might be expecting with this idea? [Planning to use Ilford Multigrade RC Pearl with Ilford chemistry, so nothing that seems too outlandish or uncommon.]

 

[MattKing]

RC prints are so simple to dry - hang them or put them on screens or stack them in a rack - that there is no reason to leave them for extended times in water.
I use two wash trays, with the second tray draining down into the first tray. I aim for a 1 minute wash time in each. My prints then get transferred to a draining flat surface (emulsion up), their image side is blotted dry with a linen towel, and then the prints are transferred to drying racks which look suspiciously like the coated wire racks that we used to use for keeping our LP record collections.

 

[MattKing]

I feel like this question somewhat depends on what specifically you're doing: One off prints vs small copy vs larger batch runs as far as risk management goes.

If I push my luck and spoil 1 in 100 prints that I made in 1/10th the time as a batch vs what it would have taken to do each end-to-end individually, then I would be less annoyed at it than if I had been careless and spoiled a one off print that I had forgotten in a wash tank.

Personally I'm aiming to start my first real darkroom printing 'project' later this year that would require dozens of copies of a few images, and I'm on the fence with how best to process things.

For my small 4x5 print project I am thinking that the logical process would be to do a large batch of exposures, then take my box of exposed sheets over for wet processing all in one go, rather than flipping back and forth between dry and wet work. Sounds sensible in my head, but I'm left wondering just how large of a batch it makes sense to push things with.

Dev tank time and agitation feel like they're the only real time critical points, while all the other stages seem like it isn't really going to matter how much I fudge their timings as long as I'm not forgetting them there for ages and had hit at least min-time for fix and wash. Am I setting myself up for more of a headache than I might be expecting with this idea? [Planning to use Ilford Multigrade RC Pearl with Ilford chemistry, so nothing that seems too outlandish or uncommon.]

If I might make a suggestion, it would be a good idea to start a thread on this subject in the Postcard Exchange sub-forum. Alternatively, you could start a thread on this subject in this sub-forum.
I have a few suggestions, many of which arise from my experience with the Postcard exchanges, but it deserves its own thread.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I feel like everyone here is glazing over you leaving them in a stagnant water bath after the fixer. Surely that is just a bath of dilute fixer by the end, isn't it?

 

[MattKing]

I feel like everyone here is glazing over you leaving them in a stagnant water bath after the fixer. Surely that is just a bath of dilute fixer by the end, isn't it?

I missed that - yes, that is definitely a problem, and likely to make it difficult to easily wash the prints properly.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I missed that - yes, that is definitely a problem, and likely to make it difficult to easily wash the prints properly.

I think I was so attuned to it because I am sometimes guilty of it myself and I worry it affects the archival stability of my prints. Sometimes in a darkroom without running water it is a necessity. But I try as hard as I can to reduce the impact of it by sending it through a post-fix water bath before the "bucket" and I get to the sink at least once every 30 minutes.

 

[Brendan Quirk]

Edge penetration is real. I used to use Panalure RC, with a holding water bath in the dry darkroom. Immersion times would be hours. Prints stored in the dark are good 25 years later, BUT prints displayed for a few years have developed yellowing along the edges. The sugestion that this is from small amounts of fixer in the holding bath sounds true, as the relatively brief wash at the end would not remove it through the thin edge, and fixer contaminated prints yellow eventually on display.

PS. Fiber prints held in the same manner do not give the same problems.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Other than some photography classes in college back in the early 70's, I've never printed on RC papers. However, I've recently taken a liking to Ilford RC MGWT Pearl and I know wet time should be minimized with RC papers. I can spend 2-3 hours in the darkroom, especially when working toward a final print, and following the fixer I toss the prints into a holding bath of water until I'm finished. Is it okay to leave RC paper in water for that long? How do you all handle these papers?

I wolden't leave them overnight because, it may start to delaminate but, a few hours is fine.

 

[Eric Rose]

I wolden't leave them overnight because, it may start to delaminate but, a few hours is fine.

My experience as well.

 

[pentaxuser]

My experience as well.

From a student college course that was my experience also. That now constitutes a defined United Nations response of a German, Canadian and a Jock

pentaxuser

 

[CMoore]

I feel like everyone here is glazing over you leaving them in a stagnant water bath after the fixer. Surely that is just a bath of dilute fixer by the end, isn't it?

I missed that - yes, that is definitely a problem, and likely to make it difficult to easily wash the prints properly.

Pardon me for being dense, but....... So you guys are saying, if you take a (RC) print out of the Fix, and put it in a tray of water, for 2 hours, and then wash it later; that print will require more washing than a print that comes from the fix and then is washed (right away) in a couple changes of water for 2-10 minutes.?
Thank You

 

[MattKing]

Pardon me for being dense, but....... So you guys are saying, if you take a (RC) print out of the Fix, and put it in a tray of water, for 2 hours, and then wash it later; that print will require more washing than a print that comes from the fix and then is washed (right away) in a couple changes of water for 2-10 minutes.?
Thank You

No, not really.
But if you do it with twenty prints, with each one adding more and more and more fixer residue to the stagnant water, that water will become more and more like a fixer bath, rather than a rinse bath.

 

[CMoore]

OK... I See.
Right, i usually only print 1-3 photos at a time.
If i ever blast out 20 master-pieces, i will keep your advice in mind.
Thanks Again, Canada

 

[silveror0]

... So you guys are saying, if you take a (RC) print out of the Fix, and put it in a tray of water, for 2 hours, and then wash it later; that print will require more washing than a print that comes from the fix and then is washed (right away) in a couple changes of water for 2-10 minutes.?
Thank You

Check the link to Ilford's recommendation in post #6 above:
Straight from the fixer, rinsing in running water above 5*C(41*F) for TWO minutes is sufficient.
Also - "Wash for at least 15 seconds at temperatures above 5°C/41°F. Set the water flow to fill the wash tank in 4 minutes or less."
Also - Wet times longer than 15 minutes are not recommended (for the stated reasons).

 

[laser]

The manufacturer's recommendation is the best practice. More than 2x the recommendation is a reasonable limit. If you need the best longevity a worthwhile practice is to trim off a 1/4-inch after the prints are dry. This can be accounted for in printing. The trim removes chemical edge-penetration and delamination sites.

 

[Rich Ullsmith]

Delaminating edges from an extended water bath, I have never experienced it. Never, ever.
I print proofs on RC, if I got 100+ exposures this can take a week. There they sit, for a week, in stagnant well water that we don't even drink ourselves. The downside is, well I have not found it yet. As for accumulating fixer in the holding bath, I have seen no evidence of that, either.
This workflow for RC paper is now 15 years old. I imagine if there were a fatal flaw, I would have discovered it by now . . .certainly during toning or bleaching.

Dev => water stop => film-strength fix for 15s => holding bath. When it's time for bed, cover the fix (for evaporation and odor) and the developer (for that plus oxidation) with sliced up trash bags. For 8X10 trays, one kitchen garbage bag makes 8 covers.

To start printing again at some later date . . .pull the covers off and print.

To finish up at the end, refix in large batches in fresh fixer, then wash.

Can't imagine the time that has been saved, breaking everything down and cleaning everything up whenever I want to play around.