RC Paper -- Darkroom workflow question

Kycoo · Oct 15, 2008

I have been getting corner delamination on some RC contact sheets I made last month. Since I am planning to use RC paper for the prints in the near future, I thought I'd investigate why.

I use Ilford paper exclusively. I read in Ilford's RC paper fact sheet that Ilford does not recommend wet times longer than 15 minutes for their RC paper. Problem is, I use a college darkroom and usually do not do a wash until the end of the period, which is about two to three hours later. During that time, the prints sit in a holding tray with running water.

Is there a way around this relatively short wet time or I just have to put up with washing and drying the prints as they get out of the fixer?

Akki14 · Oct 15, 2008

Are you accidently bashing the corner of the paper? That will make it a lot more likely to delaminate. Don't miss out a good washing, the fixer left on the print will eat it away.

jmal · Oct 15, 2008

No way around it as far as I know. I ususally print for 20-30 minutes and then wash. Repeat cycle. I don't have any major delamination issues, but every now and then I get a swollen corner.

selenium96 · Oct 15, 2008

Perhaps you could get a hold of a Kodak tray siphon and turn your holding tray into a washer. MGIV RC has pretty short wash times especially with rapid fixer.

fschifano · Oct 15, 2008

Yeah, well unfortunately, that's the way it is. RC papers don't like extended wet times. The figures quoted by the manufacturer are conservative, but you still need to watch it. Banging the corners is a sure way to aggravate the problem, and it doesn't take much abuse for obvious damage to occur once the paper has been wet for a while.

How are you washing the prints? In a tray with agitation or a tray siphon? Most of the damage I've had to RC prints was due to a too vigorous water flow in the tray. Turn down the flow and it goes away.

Nick Zentena · Oct 15, 2008

Does Ilford actually list a max of 15 minutes? Seems very short to me. Use a slow developer. Plain double fix. Haven't you used most of that 15minutes up before the wash?

JBrunner · Oct 15, 2008

In my experience you can get away with more than 15 minutes, but two or three hours in water is waaay too long for RC.

Kycoo · Oct 15, 2008

Nick, the wet times are noted on page 3 (washing section) of the Ilford RC paper fact sheet: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130200232336.pdf

The holding tank has very slow running water. We wash in a tumbler -- so that may be the problem. I will try hand washing instead and every hour.

Thanks for putting up with my newbie questions.

----Patrick

fschifano · Oct 15, 2008

Kycoo said:
We wash in a tumbler -- so that may be the problem. I will try hand washing instead and every hour.

There's your answer. I'd bet money on it.

ic-racer · Oct 15, 2008

When I do RC I 'wash as I go' one at a time in a tray with a Kodak siphon. I don't let the prints built up as when doing FB prints.

dancqu · Oct 15, 2008

ic-racer said:
When I do RC I 'wash as I go' one at a time
in a tray with a Kodak siphon. I don't let the
prints built up as when doing FB prints.

I also, when I was using RC. A 1, 2, then 3 minute
tray rinse with little water.

I've gone FB and processing time is less. After a very
dilute one shot fix the print is put into a hold/rinse tray
to soak; the still water diffusion method. Thin non-woven
fabric separates the prints as they pile up; one separator
on tray bottom and one to top the stack.

I'll not detail all the moves at this time but will mention
that two more clean water soaks follow. All with room
temperature water. The last soak is overnight. Wet
times run at least 12 plus hours. No problems.
Water usage, Very Very little. Dan

Perhaps FB and at home Washing. Save time
and water. Dan

Akki14 · Oct 16, 2008

Maybe I'm missing something here but if you're putting them in a "holding tray" of running water, isn't that quite similar to washing? If you shuffle the prints around in between doing a few more prints, then remember the prints you put in first, you can rotate those ones out after 10-15 minutes of washing and hang them up to dry or however you dry your prints.

Joe VanCleave · Oct 18, 2008

I've noticed some delamination with Ilford RC paper if left in a holding tray of water for excess amounts of time, so when doing a large batch of prints I'll stop at some point and squeegee and hang these prints before continuing the processing.

I also have an overflow tray in the darkroom sink, that the soaking tray can overflow into when the water is turned on; the prints from the fixer go into this lower overflow tray to eliminate the bulk of the fixer prior to going into the holding tray, to avoid re-contamination of the holding tray with each fresh print. I have a Kodak tray siphon attached to the upper holding tray, which I'll cycle on for a minute or so while fixing a print, after which time the print goes to the lower tray that now contains fresher water, just for 30 seconds or so, then on to the holding tray.

~Joe

Ian Grant · Oct 18, 2008

Back in the late 70's & 80 we regularly printed runs of over 100 prints off multiple negatives, we washed arouind 50 prints at a time in a large lab sink for up to half an hour, we never had a de-laminatin problem unless the wash went closer to an hour or more.

Ian

pentaxuser · Oct 18, 2008

Maybe Ilford MG has become even tougher since the time Ian speaks of. At both college courses I attended, almost everybody had their first prints in the large sink within 15 mins of the start and most didn't bother to extract them until near the end of the evening's session when they put them in the cascading waterfall system for about 5 mins and then used a wiper blade to get rid of the bulk of the water and then everyone queued for the print dryer, two at a time to pass the prints through the very speedy rollers. The early prints must have been in water for well over one and half hours and some for two.

I must have gone well over an hour and a half myself. Ignorance was bliss and I never heard anyone complain of delamination.

Now in my own darkroom each RC print gets 5 mins max and then only if I forget to pull it out because I have moved on to the next neg and print. My water is metered!

Come to think of it, I'll have to write to Gordon and ask for the equivalent of the pensioner's heating allowance as a photographer's water allowance. Now he's solved the world's financial crisis he has time on his hands.

I can see it now. Rupert's ( he of the Sun) headlines read: "Old Jock found suffering from dehydration" He said to the medics: "I had to choose between the RC prints and remaining hydrated. The prints won". A worried medical spokesman said: "Thank goodness we caught him in time, he was about to move to FB and that could have been fatal. In the meantime, he's being prescribed digi and inkjet but keeps refusing to take the medication."

Well it's Saturday night and time to lighten proceedings.

pentaxuser

Photo Engineer · Oct 18, 2008

RC paper is obviously a laminate. Any laminate, if poorly made will delaminate and this was of major concern at EK during the design of RC paper. Edge penetration of the processing solutions and wash water caused delamination which was preceded by the appearance of a wet edge creeping in from the middle of the sandwich. In color, it turned red from the blix.

Today, most all RC paper comes from one source. If you are having a delamination process, you may have a batch of paper coated on marginal RC support.

I will routinely hold color prints (up to 48 of them) over 2 - 4 hours during a printing session in a tray of water and then give all of them their final wash before I dry them. I get no lamination, but then one of Kodak's tests includes liquid edge penetration which is a precursor and sign of a bad batch of RC.

I hesitate to say this, knowing Ilford's reputation for high quality and their rigid factory testing, but perhaps a marginal batch of RC got into the factory from their supplier and was coated on. The paper would be perfect except with a longish wash time. Then it could delaminate.

Just a thought.

PE

nworth · Oct 22, 2008

Ilford RC papers will stand a much longer wet time that 15 minutes with no sign of delamination. They can be washed for an hour (if you forget them) without harm, at least from my experience. My workflow includes a thorough rinse under the tap after fixing. Then I stack the prints in a tray (no water, just the prints) until I'm ready to wash them all together for a few minutes. As long as the prints are damp, they will not stick togther while waiting for the wash.

Martin Aislabie · Oct 23, 2008

Kycoo said:
I have been getting corner delamination on some RC contact sheets I made last month. Since I am planning to use RC paper for the prints in the near future, I thought I'd investigate why.

I use Ilford paper exclusively. I read in Ilford's RC paper fact sheet that Ilford does not recommend wet times longer than 15 minutes for their RC paper. Problem is, I use a college darkroom and usually do not do a wash until the end of the period, which is about two to three hours later. During that time, the prints sit in a holding tray with running water.

Is there a way around this relatively short wet time or I just have to put up with washing and drying the prints as they get out of the fixer?

Kycoo - there is no other way round it - you are going to have to split your print session into several parts and wash/dry this your work about every hour.
RC needs only about 5 mins in running water to be fully washed.
You can turn this to your advantage by review your work in the light over a cup of coffee and correct any mistakes/trends without wasting the whole session

Have fun

Martin

dancqu · Oct 23, 2008

pentaxuser said:
Now in my own darkroom each RC print gets 5 mins max
and then only if I forget to pull it out because I have moved
on to the next neg and print. My water is metered!

Come to think of it, I'll have to write to Gordon and ask
for the equivalent of the pensioner's heating allowance as
a photographer's water allowance. pentaxuser

This from 10 Downing Street: To use the least amount
of water switch to still water soaks. Two trays, some
non-woven separators, very little water, and correct
technique will cut your bill. Not the quickest way to
clean but a least amount of water way. Easy to do
too. Ditto for FB but more time soaking.

Source not to be quoted. Dan

RC Paper -- Darkroom workflow question

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