RC paper blues

mauro35 · Sep 24, 2014

I started darkroom enlarging and printing quite recently and as probably most of the beginners do, I have settled with RC paper (for now). I have definitely not been producing any work worth of display or infinite permanence (again, for now...I hope).
Anyway, I started to reflect and worry about the issue of archivability of RC paper and I know there are many previuos threads on that here in Apug. I have also read the Ctein report on prints silvering out when framed (as opposed to when freely in contact with air). At the moment I do not tone nor stabilize my prints, but I just store them away from direct light in pergamine folders. I was wondering if toning or stabilizing can be done in the near future if I feel like (I mean not immediately after washing, but after a few months to one year of producing the prints) and still achieve a degree of protection, provided the prints will still be ok. I´m curious about what the other users of RC paper here in the community think and how this issue is approached.

Thank you all!

Mauro

DannL. · Sep 24, 2014

My primary concern would not be the permanence of the image as much as the final appearance of image. Toning can completely alter the mood of your work. And using the word "completely" here is probably an understatement. This is just from my own experience, but if you "don't" tone your photograph when you're in the process of creating the image, the heat of the moment, this could be compared to peeling a banana and not eating it whilst it's fresh. Many undesirable things can happen. The ravages of time. Your print may become damaged, soiled or fade. The negative may also become damaged, dirty, or scratched. You'll probably move on to new projects, and your desire to "finish the print" may not return. If you wait to tone, you may not care for the results of a specific toner. How many copies of the print will be available to "test" toners? The process of toning is just like making test strips. You may need to make many before you settle on a specific color. Just a few thoughts to ponder.

I have returned to tone numerous prints, many years after they were produced. But, I go into the process with the mindset that I can write-off the print if the toning does not "help the image".

removed account4 · Sep 24, 2014

hi mauro
in addition to what dannl said ..

i have some rc prints that i made in 1980 that look as nice as the day it came out
of the water. i don't tone anything, but i put the prints through fixer remover and wash them.
i have heard of a product ( i have it but haven't used it yet ) called AG STAB ( sistan ) that you can use
to stabilize rc prints ( or so i have read ). rc paper is very good these days, and some say
if processed / displayed "correctly" it will outlast fb prints. if you frame them, don't put glass on them
they need to "breath" ...

good luck !
john

mauro35 · Sep 24, 2014

Hi DannL and John, thank you for the replies. I didn't consider the change in appearance after toning, that is a very good point. I heard about sistan too, I don't know if I defined it correctly, I referred to it as stabilizer in my original post, but it is not clear to me whether that can be used long after the process has ended. The product description recommends right after washing the prints. On the other hand it's good to hear RC prints from the 80s are still looking good.

Gerald C Koch · Sep 24, 2014

Since they were introduced the quality of RC papers has steadily improved until today their permanence rivals that of FB papers. Early problems with these papers centered around the paper subsdtrate and not the emulsion itself. However the negative association with thiese early problem still affects people's attitude toward RC papers to this day. I personally would not worry.

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 24, 2014

Don't worry. Just create and practice your art. Jackson Pollock used paint collected from dumpsters for his paintings. Some of his art is require art restorers to fix it decades later, but he's dead not and probably not too worried about it. My point is don't worry so much and practice your printing. If this really worries you, starting printing on FB paper.

pentaxuser · Sep 24, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
Since they were introduced the quality of RC papers has steadily improved until today their permanence rivals that of FB papers. Early problems with these papers centered around the paper subsdtrate and not the emulsion itself. However the negative association with thiese early problem still affects people's attitude toward RC papers to this day. I personally would not worry.

Ladies and gentlemen, the main event here at Madison Square Garden. Fifteen rounds of boxing with no quarter asked or given to decide the undisputed answer to the longevity question.

Cue the music from Cavalleria Rusticana.

pentaxuser AKA Gunboat Johnson who heard too many bells and took too many punches

pdeeh · Sep 24, 2014

It's not a real photograph unless it's printed on fibre paper. Apparently.

MartinP · Sep 24, 2014

There is no silver in RA4 prints so there will be no silvering-out effect. Instead, you need to consider the possible fading of the dyes used to form the colour image. Similarly, black-and-white toning methods modify the silver in the image to make it more archival while colour-toning materials (if any are still in production?) affect the different image forming dyes, with unknown affect on their longevity. There are still some RA4 print materials on a polyester base, with no paper involved at all in the construction - these may be archivally more robust as there is no paper to deteriorate.

Is this post actually in the wrong sub-forum??

EDIT: Yes, it was in the colour print forum originally, hence the confusion.

Jeff Kubach · Sep 24, 2014

All of my images on RC paper have lasted for a long time.

Jeff

mauro35 · Sep 24, 2014

Sorry for not being clear enough in my original post. I am referring to prints from black and white negatives on black and white RC paper with silver gelatine emulsion. Thank you for pointing out it could be confused with RA4 prints.

I'm feeling better reading your comments

RPC · Sep 24, 2014

It also helps to post in the right forum.

mauro35 · Sep 24, 2014

I got it wrong! I realized now. Maybe moderators can move the thread. Apologies.

cliveh · Sep 24, 2014

You could switch to cave paintings as they last for some time.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 24, 2014

Moved to the B&W forum.

mauro35 · Sep 24, 2014

Thank you!

AeroDan · Sep 26, 2014

Referring to an earlier post, is it really bad to put RC paper behind glass? I've never heard of a print needing to breathe, but if true, I have many hanging this way and would like to verify this! Thanks all, AD

Pat Erson · Sep 26, 2014

A tangential question now :
will a well-washed RC print last longer than a poorly/hastily washed FB print?

mauro35 · Sep 26, 2014

AeroDan said:
Referring to an earlier post, is it really bad to put RC paper behind glass? I've never heard of a print needing to breathe, but if true, I have many hanging this way and would like to verify this! Thanks all, AD

In Ctein´s book Post exposure (http://ctein.com/booksmpl.htm) there is a report of bronzing as early as a few months after the print was made, when RC prints are displayed behind glass. This is an old report and if I understood right the manufacturers have tried to address the issue in the modern RC paper production. But OTOH I asked ADOX about permanence of their paper (I use Adox MCP for my work) and they still state it is compulsory to tone a print whenever it is intended for display. I would be curious too if somebody knows more about this.

baachitraka · Sep 26, 2014

After two years RC paper behind a cheap frame glass, no change in color and and prints are un-toned.

I have definitely not been producing any work worth of display or infinite permanence (again, for now...I hope).

* Please do not restrict yourself in learning. RC is slightly easier to handle but you will appreciate the tones of FB.

pentaxuser · Sep 26, 2014

baachitraka said:
After two years RC paper behind a cheap frame glass, no change in color and and prints are un-toned.

* Please do not restrict yourself in learning. RC is slightly easier to handle but you will appreciate the tones of FB.

I can improve on that. 5 years now in exactly the same circumstances.

pentaxuser

L Gebhardt · Sep 26, 2014

AeroDan said:
Referring to an earlier post, is it really bad to put RC paper behind glass? I've never heard of a print needing to breathe, but if true, I have many hanging this way and would like to verify this! Thanks all, AD

I have had a few rc prints silver out when displayed behind glass. They were all glossy, but I'm not sure if that matters. It happened very quickly - under a year if my memory is correct. None of my RC contact prints have had the issue, so it does seem that the enclosed space created by the glass brings on the problem. I also have some framed RC prints from 25 years ago that haven't changed at all. I now use fiber papers for final prints because of this and their better appearance (in my opinion).

L Gebhardt · Sep 26, 2014

Also, if you eventually want to use fiber paper, start now for at least some prints You might as well get experience handling it.

Jim Jones · Sep 27, 2014

I have many hundred prints on Kodak RC paper from 1973-1975 that have been stored in Kodak's original 250 sheet boxes and some prints displayed under glass from slightly later. Despite non-archival storage and some hasty processing, almost all have survived in pristine condition. The worst bronzing resulted in displaying unglazed prints in a kitchen with a slight gas leak. In that environment prints would bronze in a few months.

mauro35 · Sep 27, 2014

Good to hear mostly positive experiences, confirming that RC paper seems indeed very good. At the moment I really like how easy it is to process RC prints and the matt surface gives very pleasing tones for the subjects I photograph. But of course, I am curious and sooner or later I will try FB as well.

RC paper blues

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