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Rationale for having a long life developer and method for testing

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Photo Engineer

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I have posted some of my reasoning here:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

In my posts, I state some of the reasons why I want a long life developer. I first began the quest for this back in 1965 for B&W and color developers, and the result was a testing methodology for both seasoning and keeping and a US patent (3,615,503 Edens, Mowrey) for the old C-22 developer. It was also applied to the EP3 developer.

Well, here is the reasoning and it applies to both color and B&W.

A developer ages or seasons for virtually the same reasons. The pH changes (down), the developing agent chages (down), the antioxidant(s) change (down) and the halide content changes (up but only with seasoning). The big difference is that an aging developer in an open container also changes by evaporation if the time span is long enough. In addition, this evaporation varies as a function of surface to volume ratio. For example, 1 liter in an 11x14 tray evaporates and changes faster than the same amount in an 8x10 tray, and this changes more than the same amount in a 5x7 tray.

The result of the above is this; you can meter the capacity and lifetime of a developer simply by placing it in an open tray and running a print through it every day at the same time and temperature and with the same exposure. The change in the gray scale produced is a measure of either capacity or resistance to oxidation or a combination of both. The test can be as long or as short as you wish. Usually, one week will reveal total capacity or life or a combination of both. Sometimes only a day or so is needed.

At the end of the test, you then make an additional print but develop by inspection in an effort to regain the original sensitometry by increasing development time. This tells you if the developer is truly dying, or is just losing activity and these are two big differences, believe me!

In addition, you measure the pH of the developer at the start and at the end of the test. This gives you a measure of the effect of carbon dioxide and oxidation on this critical feature.

Now, here are some findings. First, the size of the tray only changes the speed at which a developer changes, it does not change the rank ordering of developers. Second, evaporation increases buffer capacity somewhat, but pH can still go down and in most cases, pH is more important than buffer capacity at normal working dilutions. Third, sulfite or other antioxidants are used up and some developers may turn color, some may stain, and some may turn into a sludge or cause a sludge to settle out. This may or may not be harmful.

The ideal goal of course is that if I'm going to make 25 prints that I want to be identical, I want a high capacity, stable developer. I don't want to start the job, go to lunch and return to the darkroom only to start over again or adjust printing time or contrast or development time.

As stated elsewhere, some developers appear the same on superficial examination, but show slight changes in toe or upper shoulder that can alter a print. This is not good.

Now you may say - use more developer, change developer more often and etc etc. This is all true, but finding out how much to use or when to change may be part of the problem. For example, some developers change regardless of how much you use, simply because they are poorly 'buffered' in all ingredients. Therefore, one developer may allow 20 8x10 sheets / liter, and another may begin showing changes after only 5 or 10 sheets. This also varies with respect to scene. A dark scene changes the developer more rapidly than a light one. At Kodak, we used the average of 30% of the silver being developed in an average scene, but this is averaged over thousands of prints. So, if you are doing a snow scene as opposed to a dark evening scene, things work out differently over the same 10 - 20 prints in a given developer. I've run into this, espeically with silver rich papers, or unwashed emulsions which I'm testing. It is also important with papers that contain developing agents as opposed to those which do not.

So, you see the complexity of judging how much to use and how long. I want to remove this problem by having a high capacity, long lasting developer regardless of paper or scene.

I have a list of developers to test, and I'm only part way through the list, so I will not be publishing any data yet. The results so far are rather surprising, to say the least. Stay tuned.

PE
 

Tom Hoskinson

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P.E., Is Michael A. Smith's Amidol/Azo formula on your list?

For 1 liter of MAS Amidol working developer:

Water 900ml

Amidol 8 grams

Sodium Sulfite 30 grams

Citric Acid 3 grams

KBr (10% solution) 2ml

Water to make 1 liter
 
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I will not disclose the list, nor the results until the tests are completed. I will accpet suggestions.

BTW, I should add that this test will also be revealing regarding the keeping qualities of a partially used bottle of stock developer solution that does not have an inert gas atmosphere, or is in gas permeable containers.

PE
 

Gerald Koch

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When I have a number of identical prints to make I use a Color Canoe and use the developer as a one shot. This insures consistency from print to print. The canoes use only a small amount of working strength developer, 1-1/2 oz for the 8x10 size, and I find this to be a simple and economical method. Temperature is easily controlled because the canoes are metal and can be used with a water bath.
 
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Good idea, Gerald, but not optimum for some.

BTW, IIRC, the original Color Canoe was offered to Kodak by the inventor, but Kodak declined. He gave several to Kodak with the Kodak logo on them. They were ditched when Kodak declined the offer and the originator apparently did not want them back.

I have one of them, given me by my boss who was evaluating them.

PE
 
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Photo Engineer

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I say no protection for the reason that that would be a worst case scenario. How many of us use a liquid concentrate and then use an inert blanket of gas over it when we close up the bottle? If you don't use protection, then this is going to be what to expect.

I've already had some concentrates go bad in partially filled bottles.

PE
 

MurrayMinchin

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I've been playing with this idea in my own Neanderthal, knuckle dragging kind of way with a modified Ansco 120 formula to which Glycin is added. The thing that occured to me, having come up with a developer that keeps for a year in stock solution and for months as a working solution (both stored in mylar, or aluminized plastic wine bags) was how to get a print made on day one to match another print made several months later.

To keep tabs on how it's behaving I came up with a simple test using the papers emergence time (E.T.) in the developer and multiplying that with a development factor (D.F.) of 4.5. This developer, at the dilution I use it, has a slow E.T. so I'm able to use the negatives clear edge as the emergence area. At the start of, and several times during a printing session, I'll place a small strip of paper on the edge of the easel and expose it at normal contrast for max black time. This gets popped into the developer and I watch for the black line of the negatives clear edge to appear.

When the working solution is fresh the line appears at 40 seconds, multiplied by the D.F. of 4.5 = a 3 minute development time. When the E.T. gets to 48 seconds I toss that batch of working solution because the black line doesn't appear abruptly enough to get a good E.T.

While VC paper might change slightly over time (if it's not refrigerated), or new paper of another emulsion number is being used, using this method will get me so close I can taste it. Anyways, it works for me :smile:

Murray
 

MattKing

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PE:

Are you by any chance including POLYMAX T Developer in your tests?

Matt
 

MattKing

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Matt;

Please read my post #4.

Thanks.

PE


Sorry PE - I had intended to suggest Polymax, but somehow my post came out as a question, rather than a suggestion.

How does that happen??:confused:

Matt
 

dancqu

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How many of us use a liquid concentrate and
then use an inert blanket of gas over it when
we close up the bottle? PE

Less than half as many use an inert blanket
of gas as use, without gas, Amber Glass Boston
Rounds with Polyseal or Polycone caps. Less
than half. I don't have the exact figures.

Certainly tests should include the glass Boston
Rounds with the caps mentioned. To make the
testing extremely exhaustive the clear glass
Bostons should be included. Dan
 

Matthew Gorringe

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Any chance of doing a comparison with one or two of the selected developers between tray and vertical slot deterioration? Ideally I'd like to know whether using a Nova is helping my Dektol and Selektol Soft remain consistent for longer and if so how long.
 
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Matt;

I don't have a slot processor, but from lots of experience with that type of processor, I can extrapolate with a good chance of success. That is about the best I can do under the present circumstances.

Rank ordering will be the same, for example.

PE
 

Bob F.

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If you are still open to suggestions PE, I'd be particularly interested in results from any of the following: Ansco 130, Neutol WA and Ilford Warmtone, Cooltone and Multigrade developers...

I find most of these seem to last well in my Nova slot tanks - would be interesting to see how they compare to others in general.

Cheers, Bob.
 

dancqu

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[QUOTES=MurrayMinchin;407477]

"...(both stored in mylar, or aluminized plastic wine bags)..."

You may be the "average Joe" PE mentioned in response
to my earlier post.

"When the working solution is fresh the line appears at 40
seconds. When the E.T. gets to 48 seconds I toss that
batch of working solution ..."

I too use the E.T. to track the activity of print developers.
Film developers can also be checked in the same manor;
using print paper. Going from 40 to 48 seconds does
not seem so much of a decrease in activity. Dan
 
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Unfortunately, I have seen developers in which the ET moves very little, but either the contrast goes down, or the dmax goes down and no amount of extended development recovers either.

PE
 

Petzi

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How can we convince PE to test Agfa developers? :smile:
 

Petzi

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I wouldn't tell you if you had. :smile:

PE

I am willing to donate a 1.25 liter bottle of Neutol liquid WA, Neutol liquid NE, and Multicontrast Developer to Photo Engineer. Of the Neutol Plus (Vitamin C), I only have the 5 liter canister... Shipping cost is a little bit of an issue...
 
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