Rapid fixer milky white color

AndreiF · Feb 19, 2023

Hi all,

So I realized that my concentrated Ilford rapid fixer got a milky white color when mixed with water (from a 5L bottle, half full) It has more than the stated 6 month by Ilford sheets.

I just mixed a 1+9 dilution and run the "negative strip test" and the fixer cleared the strip in below 1 minute. What should I learn from this? It s white because extended shelf time, but still works well?

Thank you so much in advance!

xkaes · Feb 19, 2023

AndreiF said:
I just mixed a 1+9 dilution and run the "negative strip test" and the fixer cleared in below 1 minute.

I don't know what this means. Do you mean the film cleared?

Don't pay attention to the "color" of the fixer. Just test it and see if it works.

You might have to fix longer than with new fixer, but if you have the time, no problem -- or decrease the dilution.

AndreiF · Feb 19, 2023

xkaes said:
I don't know what this means. Do you mean the film cleared?

Don't pay attention to the "color" of the fixer. Just test it and see if it works.

You might have to fix longer than with new fixer, but if you have the time, no problem -- or decrease the dilution.

Sorry, yes, wanted to say the film cleared.
Thank you

mshchem · Feb 19, 2023

Tsubasa said:
That the white milky color is colloidal sulfur that will embed itself into the gelatine.
Please throw away the fixer and buy a new bottle if you don't want to ruin your film.

+1!

Rudeofus · Feb 19, 2023

Tsubasa said:
That the white milky color is colloidal sulfur that will embed itself into the gelatine.
Please throw away the fixer and buy a new bottle if you don't want to ruin your film.

This.

Also: the fixer will still have enough thiosulfate left to clear film, but you still should not use it for important work.

Also: neutral or alkaline fixer concentrates have much better shelf life. They're sometimes sold as "odorless fixer".

AndreiF · Feb 20, 2023

Thank you all for the fast answers! Really appreciated.
I fixed some paper prints with the milky fixer as I did not have a new one at hand..Should I discard them or if I refix whit a good fixer will solve the problem?
Thank you!

Sirius Glass · Feb 20, 2023

AndreiF said:
Thank you all for the fast answers! Really appreciated.
I fixed some paper prints with the milky fixer as I did not have a new one at hand..Should I discard them or if I refix whit a good fixer will solve the problem?
Thank you!

Continue using the fixer until it test bad with drops or cannot clear exposed film [I use the film leaders from 35mm cassettes for testing].

MattKing · Feb 20, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Continue using the fixer until it test bad with drops or cannot clear exposed film [I use the film leaders from 35mm cassettes for testing].

Heed the warnings above about fixer that can do the job, but leave you with embedded particulate in your film!

Daniela · Feb 20, 2023

That happened to my fixer last time I used it.
Does heat do that? I ask because I put the bottle on top of the radiator to warm it up a bit... And while we're at it, I sometimes warm up the developer on top of the radiator too. Could that pose a problem?

TomR55 · Feb 20, 2023

Cost of <you fill in the processing element here> far exceeds the cost of film, notwithstanding the value of the image to your work. When in doubt, throw it out.

This forum is an excellent source of information from people who (generally) know a lot about the process; heed their advice.

Anon Ymous · Feb 20, 2023

Daniela said:
That happened to my fixer last time I used it.
Does heat do that? I ask because I put the bottle on top of the radiator to warm it up a bit... And while we're at it, I sometimes warm up the developer on top of the radiator too. Could that pose a problem?

Heat will accelerate any chemical reaction, but putting your fixer on top of the radiator to warm it up a bit couldn't have done it. It was already so. Any acidic fixer (the vast majority of BW fixers) will eventually sulfur out, it's a matter of time. Avoiding long term high temperatures is a good idea, but it will eventually spoil. Neutral and alkaline fixers will keep much better.

Daniela · Feb 20, 2023

Anon Ymous said:
Heat will accelerate any chemical reaction, but putting your fixer on top of the radiator to warm it up a bit couldn't have done it. It was already so. Any acidic fixer (the vast majority of BW fixers) will eventually sulfur out, it's a matter of time. Avoiding long term high temperatures is a good idea, but it will eventually spoil. Neutral and alkaline fixers will keep much better.

Thank you!

koraks · Feb 20, 2023

Btw, it is possible to filter out the precipitate. Use a fine mesh filter, e.g. a coffee filter or a wad of cotton wool etc. Repeat the process until the fixer is clear as water. If it still tests OK, it can be used just fine.
Given the low cost of new fixer, I can imagine if most people don't bother.
I frequently do the filter thing with fixer I mix from some dry ammonium thiosulfate. This also sulfurs out a little, hence the filtering. I only use the fixer for prints though, because I don't like running the risk of microscopic bits of sulfur on my negatives. They won't show up on test/work prints, but on enlarger negatives they would have an impact of course.

TL;DR: filtering is a decent workaround, but proceed at your own risk & tread carefully.

halfaman · Feb 20, 2023

I have used degraded/sulfur fixer filtered with a cofee filter. It was the fixer part of RA4 blix (this fixer concentrate has a really short shelf life once opened) and I used it for not very important prints with some extra time.

Daniela · Feb 21, 2023

koraks said:
TL;DR: filtering is a decent workaround, but proceed at your own risk & tread carefully.

Great to know filtering will do in a pinch!

halfaman · Feb 21, 2023

Tsubasa said:
No, it's nearly impossible. Colloidal sulfur particles is on sub 1 micron size.

There is someting after filtering for sure because my RA4 blix looked a bit cloudy than usual after mixing (like adding a splash milk to black coffee). But it didn't cause any mottling or other issue on paper so I continue using it for not very important prints.

Anon Ymous · Feb 21, 2023

Sulfur reacts with sodium sulfite and gives sodium thiosulfate as a product, but this requires elevated temperature. It would be interesting to see what the result is after adding some sodium sulfite in such a fixer, although I wouldn't really dare using it with something important.

Rudeofus · Feb 21, 2023

halfaman said:
There is someting after filtering for sure because my RA4 blix looked a bit cloudy than usual after mixing (like adding a splash milk to black coffee). But it didn't cause any mottling or other issue on paper so I continue using it for not very important prints.

RA-4 paper is a different story, since RA-4 paper (ideally) contains no silver after processing - any embedded colloidal sulfur will do exactly nothing. This is very different for silver based black&white materials.

AndreiF · Feb 23, 2023

Hi there, thank you all for your messages, really helpfull!!
I am decided to pass to alkaline fixers, especially because I work mostly with lith developers. Could you please recommend an alkaline fixer to buy online in Europe? I had a look but most of the descriptions on webpage does not state the type of fixer..
Thank you very much!

koraks · Feb 23, 2023

AndreiF said:
I am decided to pass to alkaline fixers, especially because I work mostly with lith developers.

Acid fixers work fine on lith prints, though. They don't require alkaline fixers, nor do they benefit much (at all) from them.

Have you looked into Moersch chemicals? He retails at least one alkaline fixer as well IIRC. https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/shop/fix_stop_waesserung/41

Alternatively, you could look for C41 fixer, which is near-neutral. If it needs to be alkaline, you could increase pH by adding some carbonate or hydroxide. C41 fixer can often be purchased fairly cheap, but tends to come in bigger amounts than you might need.

Again, I'm skeptical of the need for an alkaline fixer in your case. The only argument I can think of pertains to wash time for fiber based papers, and for that purpose, a pH neutral fixer will work just fine, too.

AndreiF · Feb 23, 2023

koraks said:
Acid fixers work fine on lith prints, though. They don't require alkaline fixers, nor do they benefit much (at all) from them.

Have you looked into Moersch chemicals? He retails at least one alkaline fixer as well IIRC. https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/shop/fix_stop_waesserung/41

Alternatively, you could look for C41 fixer, which is near-neutral. If it needs to be alkaline, you could increase pH by adding some carbonate or hydroxide. C41 fixer can often be purchased fairly cheap, but tends to come in bigger amounts than you might need.

Again, I'm skeptical of the need for an alkaline fixer in your case. The only argument I can think of pertains to wash time for fiber based papers, and for that purpose, a pH neutral fixer will work just fine, too.

Thank you very much for the answer. I was thinking to an alkaline fixer mainly for the longer shelf life too. But I think a neutral fixer would be better than the acid one anyway. would you have any recommendation for one of this kind? Thank you again

koraks · Feb 23, 2023

I always use whatever fixer I can get cheaply currently that's mostly a Fuji minilab C41 fixer. When it runs out, I'll search for something else.

Rudeofus · Feb 24, 2023

koraks said:
I always use whatever fixer I can get cheaply currently that's mostly a Fuji minilab C41 fixer. When it runs out, I'll search for something else.

And the good thing about these neutral fixers is: they run out, but before that they never go bad. I bought 30l of Tetenal minilab fixer concentrate for a pittance three years ago. I'm through half the concentrate, and there's no sign of deterioration. No idea, why people still bother with these acidic rapid fixers.

Anon Ymous · Feb 24, 2023

Rudeofus said:
And the good thing about these neutral fixers is: they run out, but before that they never go bad. I bought 30l of Tetenal minilab fixer concentrate for a pittance three years ago. I'm through half the concentrate, and there's no sign of deterioration. No idea, why people still bother with these acidic rapid fixers.

They still bother with acidic fixers because they don't know any better and those who do might not be able to source a neutral one easily... Minilab supplies are a little hard to find, major manufacturers (ie Ilford) don't make any, so people put up with acidic fixers.

Rudeofus · Feb 24, 2023

Anon Ymous said:
They still bother with acidic fixers because they don't know any better and those who do might not be able to source a neutral one easily... Minilab supplies are a little hard to find, major manufacturers (ie Ilford) don't make any, so people put up with acidic fixers.

Every mail order place has neutral fixers these days, the one brick&mortar shop in my town has it as well. They're just not very prominently shown, as a whole shelf of dead rapid fixer bottles in my community dark room tells me.

Rapid fixer milky white color

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